At 19 pages I think this is about as good a deal as Sacramento could have put together. You can see that they had a lot of this in the can from last year and were able to put together a nice looking document.
Its still three days late and I think people are freaking out unnecessarily. The two things that stick out to me are the estimate of $217m for parking revenues and the requirement to remove flood plain limitations on Natomas to make that property value go up. What happens if they are unsuccessful there? Who pays the difference?
I just took a quick look. Your thoughts here.
I think it’s too little too late. Still no formal, acceptable bid in yet.
Expansion is unavoidable. That is the reality. See the bottom of the last thread.
We had a nice discussion going on the previosus thread, not sure it was necessary to start a new one. Bed time for me.
Its still three days late and I think people are freaking out unnecessarily.
Why? And does it really matter that it’s late.
This has to be a Sacramento fan because this is exactly what you are reading on Sacramento websites. EXACTLY!
Nothing has changed, we new Sac woud get to this point. It is going to come down to which market the NBA can make the most money in. If it goes to vote the team will move to Seattle, no way the NBA puts this to vote and then reject Hansens offer, it would be uncharted territory for the NBA.
First thoughts,the fact that they were 3 days late on a self imposed deadline isn’t going to matter come April 3rd. I’m also confused why so many are freaking out because they have completed their term sheet. Didn’t we all expect them to complete this, on time or days late, we knew it would get done.
If this deal with Hansen is a done deal, like most of us believe, then none of what Sacramento does is going to change that. Do I think we could get bamboozled and Hansen is denied? Of course, there’s a chance. But I believe in what Hansen has done, and how he’s laid this all out, and at the end of the day the sale and relocation will be approved. Sacramento has to do this even if they know it’s a futile attempt, as they have to show the NBA that even if they lose their team, they want the next one and will be ready to delivers new arena. Chill out everybody, just be patient April 3rd & April 19th are right around the corner.
Nah, ip is from downtown Seattle. 4th and Madison to be exact.
This arena proposal and potential bid by Mastrov, et al, WILL NOT be considered until the NBA turns its back on Hansen, Ballmer and Nordstroms. It is merely a back up proposal. Nothing more.
Yep, trust in Chris. He will build it (arena), they (Sonics) will come.
“In a scenario where parking revenues are not sufficient to make the
debt payments of the corporation, the City’s TOT would be used to make those payments.” -From the term sheet
The Transcient Occupancy Tax (TOT) is a hotel motel tax that currently goes into the city’s General Fund. It is then used to fund a variety of uses such as the airport, convention center, police and fire services, etc. The is a nice way for Sacto to raid their General Fund indirectly. The raided the revenue stream rather than the fund. In any event, if the deal goes south the taxpayer foots the bill thru increased taxes. They are clearly counting on the arena ticket taxes and the expanded tax base around the area to bailout the whole plan. If that does not happen it will be someone else’s problem in 10 years.
He needs to get off teh expansion kick. It is fools gold.
Seafanatic posts on StR, he was the one who made the claim that Seattle was about to have a “black swan moment”. He was also here cheerleading the ILWU lawsuit during/after that hearing. His username is misleading.
I agree, If they actually vote, the sale/relo will be approved. The only way it wont is if CH backs out before the vote, and then he would likely be complicit in the deal, and before mentioned “Silent deal” will be have been the end game all along, meaning CH will get something else right there at the BOG in April or shortly thereafter. So A) it’s all for show, and he is approved or B)silent deal, conspiracy whatever you call it happens and he backs out in return for something he agreed to with BOG/Stern from the beginning.
Now it’s *really* time for bed. Still recovering from yesterday’s Snow/Rain/Hail/Sun cacophany that messes with eveyone’s head around here.
I’m not 100% ready to rule it out. If we don’t get the Kings (which we will) we would no doubt in my mind get an expansion team. Way too much money on the table up here to ignore.
If we don’t get the Kings and then there is no expansion, we’ll be used to get Indiana and Milwaukee new buildings. Which sucks and then… *shrug*
The Black Swan moment is arriving, ignore me at your peril. Just trying to help. What is going to kill us is overconfidence. Re ILWU total BS. Link Please.
I don’t understand why the main point of thought in many’s mind right now is what the behind the scenes conspiracy story to all of this is, when we’re really at the inevitable conclusion of this saga we’ve expected all along. What this is now is our group, with their signed PSA, with their solid arena deal, in a stronger market vs. what Sacramento has put together in a short period of time and the sentimental aspect of not relocating a team.
That’s where we started essentially, that’s where we are now.
I have no idea how:
Point A: Sac puts together an arena deal
leads to
Point B: There must be some secret agreement behind closed doors involving expansion!
You’re right, you weren’t cheerleading. You were hammering the point that the judge declared the MOU non-binding or not a deal, when the argument was whether or not it was considered an action under SEPA was it not? I’d like to see a quote from the decision where the judge elaborates as to the MOU being not a legal deal or whatever you were saying.
And can you elaborate on your prediction? Or just keeping it vague and cryptic?
There is no silent deal. The Hansen group will not back out. That is what the Sacramento fans say all the time. They think that they will back out before any vote will be taken. That just is not going to happen.
People need to remember that the NBA brought the Hansen group to the Maloofs. The Hansen group didn’t just knock on the Maloofs’ door. When the NBA does something like they are not going to play around with one of the richest men in the world.
I do think looking at all the possibilities is good. I still think we will be approved, but if we are denied, it is very likely there is a back room deal for CH to back out in return for something and it likely wont ever get to a vote. That something may not be expansion, but It may be as I floated earlier that he has a back up deal with another team in case SAC stays and will pursue that other team in April and after. I do think CH being in on this and doing a favor for the league isn’t a possibility we should dismiss, and if we are not approved, it will very likely be the case. A deal to buy and move a team doesn’t get this far with the buying owner being left empty handed.
Yep. We’re in the same place. They still don’t have an acceptable bid. Really don’t think Vivek is the answer. His software company isn’t really all that innovative. I mean just use Powershell, PowerCLI or Python. Not that hard, cheaper and oh my god it actually works better.
Hansen/Ballmer/Nordstroms won’t be used again. It will have to some other billionaires that reside in the Seattle area.
Me neither.
Don’t think many others would be willing to step up.
Me neither.
Forgetting the NBA and buying the Mariners would be much cheaper.
I don’t think there’s a backup plan. NBA team or bust for these guys.
Yeah, Hansen gets a team out of this somehow or I think he is out. His leverage is big as it is going to be right now. If he doesn’t get sale approved, another team sold to him soon with ironclad guarantee in writing that the league will not interfere, or an expansion promise real soon, it’ll be just begging to let the league use you again and again.
Field of Schemes @fieldofschemes 14m
.@Golfbybryan But if Seattle MOU assumptions are bad, city might lose $50m. If Sacto term sheet #s bad, California falls into ocean.
Funny tweet from Field of Schemes on the Mou in Seattle and Term sheet in Sacramento. Pretty much if both went bad this is what happens
Maybe scaling back the arena’s cost and going NHL only.
Who is on the hook if parking revenues don’t come through.
No way. There’s not enough money in owning an NHL team to build an arena exclusively to bring that league into town. Maybe a hugely subsidized arena, but that’d be it.
NBA or bust.
It gets paid by their hotel motel tax, which puts money into the general fund, apparently.
I agree with that. They did not want to be announced publicly for this very reason. Ballmer and the Nordstrom’s don’t want any backlash from this deal. There are probably other investors whose names we do not know. Hansen is the untouchable front man. I doubt they go thru this again anytime soon. The NBA made commitments to them in 2008. Nickels was asked to drop the suit over Key Arena. This is payback time.
I read the term sheet. It states they will divert the $9m / year in parking to pay for $212m in 35 year bonds. That assumes a 2.5% interest rate. Other California munis of similar length are 4%. Theres few details about how anything is calculated in the term sheet so its hard to know much.
The city.
It all depends on how the NBA is really looking at this situation. Are they looking at the Seattle option on it’s own merits and then voting, or are they comparing both options side by side and then voting? Stern has been pretty vague with his talk of letting Sacramento make a bid.
From what I’ve gathered, the NBA was complicit in arranging Hansen meeting with the Maloofs to get the NBA back in Seattle, and the Maloofs out of the league. So why would they stab Hansen in the back just to avoid another team to relocate. It’s never stopped them before.
Remember what Mitch said a couple weeks ago, Hansen has not showed all his cards
Guys if Hansen loses out and then steps away (Doubtful) then our hopes for someone else stepping up like Chris did is not very good. Chris is our man.
TRUST IN CHRIS!!!!!!!!!!
lol, what does my IP say?
Relocation was baked in the moment the NBA invited Hansen to buy the team from the Maloof’s. If Stern wasn’t fed up with Sacto and willing to move the team we would not be at this point. I think it has come to far to backtrack on the relocation.
Sac and KJ have followed a very traditional path developing their plan, are they developing thier plan with blinders on! Nothing about Hansens approach has been traditional he thinks outside the box.
Who is going to pay for that?
Case dismissed, or did you miss that?
“@NW_Basketball: RT “@fieldofschemes: New #SacKings owners would pay off old arena debt via means “to be determined.” Not a good start here.””
Richland, WA near Williams Blvd and Stevens Drive.
Mine thinks I’m out in the middle of the canyons here. Haha
Chris himself said it was “inevitable” we would get a team. Either: A)he knew something we didn’t or B)he was lying or C)delusional. Everything that has happened so far makes me belief it is “A.”
Maybe you should read the MOU.
That’s true. Stern didn’t introduce the Hansen group to the Maloofs to keep the team in Sacramento. He knew it from day 1 that they were going to relocate team.
Okay . . . here is what I think. The Hansen group wins the vote at least or better than when Bennett got the approval to move the team to OKC. That means there will be no more than 2 no votes. I just don’t think the NBA takes someone like Ballmer through all of this without knowing the purchase would be approved. And that is my BOTTOM LINE!
You use Charter? Ugh… I’m sorry.
Kevin interested where mine is because I dont have internet and someone has open connection :)
Bet mine says I am in the Washington wine country.
I think that’s where charter cable is at. I’m in Kennewick about 15 miles away.
“Not”
We need an “edit” option
At this point I’ve built up such disdain for Sacramento that I’d just be happy if the Kings were relocated anywhere, Homer, Alaska as far as I am concerned!! So sick of the “here we stay” crap and KJ’s endless cheer-leading.
Bet that is what the Okies said about us and the rallies. We just didn’t have a mayor was a cheerleader.
lolz, I hope they quote that and share it like they have been tonight. “waves”
So the term sheet is out, but makes a lot of undisclosed fiancial assumptions. Most notably is the parking financing model that is to supposedly generate $212m for the arena and a surplus of $3m to the general fund. No details on how.
When you hit this point, it’s time to take a step back, a time out, a chill pill…..take something. :)
I know where you’re coming from, it’s hard not to get ticked off when we’re getting insulted or seeing our hopes threatened in some way, but they’re just trying to protect their team. We can’t hold a grudge for that.
It’s called “cooking the books”.
If that happened, I would so air it all out every time I could. I would make sure all of that would be aired out nationwide every interview and press opportunity I got. Put a huge black eye on Stern’s legacy.
You guys are probably right. The arena deal looks as hastily thrown together as announcing a new porpoise just two weeks out from the April 3rd BOG meeting.
I just will feel a lot better once this thing is finished.
I have no real dog in this hunt. The mods can tell you I’m an East Coast guy. Not a West Coast transplant, either. But I am rooting for Seattle to win this because I became disgusted with the Sacramento gang’s bravado and tactics. And, I have a lot more fond memories of Sonics basketball than I do Sacramento basketball.
At the heart of these financial models is always the assumption that the economy is going to get better, the city will grow and happy days will be here again. If that does happen then they will default. No one forecast the recession of the last 10 years. That is why governments are all in trouble.
Sorry, quoted post didn’t post. IF I was lied to by Stern, that’s what i’d do. I agree, it’s not likely to happen at all, but I guess anything could happen.
If that does not happen …
Here’s the kicker…The council will have to have another vote in the future to actually settle the terms of the financing.
from the erm sheet:
“Sustainability: If the Council later approves the financing plan for the project, the ESC is anticipated to be designed as a LEED-certified project.”
Yeah…this whole clusterf*ck could’ve been avoided if they would’ve just given the Hornets to OKC permanently. Although, then again Howard Schultz the rat he is would’ve probably sold out to Larry Ellison eventually.
If we get the Kings, we can consider it revenge to KJ for that game 7 in 1993 where Phoenix got to the free throw line……like 100 times at least… Also keep in mind we won over Sacramento in 1996 in the NBA playoffs which was big as it got the monkey off of Karl’s back. And, then again in 2005. Let’s start a new catchy jingle, “here we leave Sacramento!”
So let me get this straight…1 year ago they thought the total financing of their 2700 downtown parking spaces would yield them $230M. Now they think that they will lose 1000 of those spaces (37%) but the proceeds will decrease by just $17M (6%) AND they expect an additional surplus of $3M to backfill the general fund.
Oh yeah…if those numbers don’t come out right then hotel money will be diverted from the general fund.
Luckily that will never happen. I know those guys projections can be trusted because so far every single thing this team has done has been delivered on schedule according to plan.
If this deal was put forward in Seattle I wouldn’t accept it.
I haven’t reached that point. I think we should have a team (we didn’t deserve to lose our old one), but Sacramento doesn’t deserve to lose theirs. It’s a sad, zero-sum situation.
I made an account just for this.
As with any financing, there are potential risks to the City associated with this approach. To minimize risks, staff used conservative (Walker) parking revenue growth projections for the term of the agreement with the corporation. In a scenario where parking revenues are not sufficient to make the debt payments of the corporation, the City’s TOT would be used to make those payments.
From Sacramento’s Term Sheet. Considering the Yankees just tried this exact model and the parking “non-profit” is bankrupt, this isn’t the best idea.
It feels like it might be less risky (though not without risk, obviously) if they increased taxes rather than fool around with their general fund. But I guess that would be a no-go politically.
I would seriously like to knock some of your heads together. Call it cognitive recalibration.
Has Sacramento purchased all of the land they need yet for their PRELIMINARY term sheet?
You wouldnt? Now I doubt Seattle would accept it but Im sure most of us would as long as the council did. Now this would get laughed out by the city but yeah.
I think we’ve talked a lot about who will be the fall guy on Sac’s side. Like why would Dude X get involved if it weren’t a sure thing or set to fail or whatever? We know KJ is coming out clean, we know Mastrov, Burkle, and Vivek didn’t sign on to look like they left the table, we know Shirey isn’t going to want to shoulder the blame, we know the city council isn’t going to want to be the villains, we know Stern and the NBA aren’t having any of it, etc. etc.
The deal isn’t put together by the self-imposed deadline, nothing seems to hit self-imposed deadlines here. So maybe things aren’t looking too hot, maybe the only deal you can even get close enough to on paper is bad, barely adds up in a best case scenario, and won’t stand up to scrutiny or legal challenges…why not put it out anyways? It’s not binding. Nobody is tied to anything. I mean if the motives are mostly political here, why not just keep passing the buck? KJ passed it, Shirey passed it, the council will pass it, maybe a judge will take it? Maybe a plaintiff in a suit? Maybe the IRS? Maybe nobody. Maybe this thing goes all the way through and Sac keeps the Kings, I don’t know, but maybe those down in Sac are just waiting for someone to be the one caught without a chair when the music stops.
The other thing that really stands out to me is 35 years.
Damn that is a long time to bank on a city with an economy like Sacramento’s.
These buildings have historically been obsolete in 15-25 years. The potential for a decade in Sacramento between years 25 and 35 is really tough.
When you think about the total size of the NBA’s financials and the length of that commitment you really get a sense of what is at stake in this decision.
Hi, Kings fan here. I’m not here to gloat or say Sac has an advantage or anything like that. I have no idea. I hope the Kings stay but that will be decided by others. Been reading a lot of posts and wanted to offer another view on the conspiracy theory. It could be that the NBA came to CH and asked him to bid because he really has nothing to lose by bidding and a lot to gain regardless of the outcome. I’ve heard on the Kings board that by California law the $30 million deposit can’t be guaranteed. I believe you guys get that back if the Kings stay. So the net result for the Seattle group if they ‘lose’ could be that they’ve communicated to other borderline owners their willingness to spend big. Ingratiated themselves to the NBA by getting rid of the Maloofs. And ingratiated themselves to the other owners by raising the value of their franchises. Move on to the Miluakee Bucks if this doesn’t pan out, and if it does no need. Plenty of borderline NBA teams in worse markets than Seattle, and expansion IS an option with a group this strong. No need for a backroom deal for this to make sense.
Check the last page of the term sheet. They have “land acquisition” penned there for $26 million
I’ve long been on record (and made part of Arena Solution’s stated arena criteria) against an arena deal that would negatively impact the general fund like this one certainly would with the hotel funds. I’m a huge basketball fan and do believe that they are economic generators but I don’t believe that they are more important than basic services, especially education. Its part of the reason elected officials take me seriously.
Have the current land owners agreed to that price?
26 million doesn’t seem like enough money at all. If I had the land they were hoping to use, I’d ask for the moon.
The downtown arena is closer to the parking they are monetizing. The arena and development will increase the demand for the remaining spaces. Soon, like in Seattle, it will cost $15 to park downtown but there will be no parking.
I’ve been to Sacramento. Don’t buy it.
Yeah, I’m with you on this one Paul. Kind of points out how they are real short on specifics on funding, land, etc (you know, the easy TBD stuff), but they made sure that the kings website will have a redirect to the city of Sacramento (see Internet section). Maybe this quote will help with the point
“The exact location on the ESC shall be determined by agreement of the parties, following additional design and planning. The parties may consider other locations by agreement.”
Can you estimate the cost of land when you haven’t figured where it is going to be build yet? And I’m assuming this just means on the DTP, not a completely different site.
kingsfan, I have a sneaking suspicion you’re a Kings fan sneakily posting here. ;)
One thing, as much as I don’t like to talk about this mystery behind the scenes theory, but why would any potential owner try to buy and relocate a team, have that get derailed by the NBA allowing local ownership to emerge and block the sale, only to just go start over again? Why would anyone waste their time trying to openly buy a team for relocation in the NBA ever again in the future? Might as well just be shady Clay Bennett style.
I skimmed the fluff and the went through the term sheet. Not too bad (since it isn’t Seattle pissing away a bunch of money out of its general fund).
There are some assumptions on financing that just require people to assume will happen, and that this arena will generate more revenue for the city.
I’m not super clear on Sacramento’s ability to change the floodplain restriction on the land they are giving away, and their ability to divert parking taxes to the arena.
Regardless, Chris Hansen has a PSA with the Maloofs, a superior ownership group and arena plan.
… and ripping the hearts out of the prospective fan base in Seattle one more time. No, Hansen, Ballmer and the Nordstrom’s will not allow themselves to be used as anybody’s stocking horse just to ingratiate themselves to the NBA. They have already done that in 2008 when they dropped the Key Arena suit.
My lord why is everybody trippin and talking about expansion teams?! We knew they where gonna release a term sheet and they did. AND it was several days late. And this other software guy is nothing. Does anyone really think this guy is gonna untap some amazing market in india? If so why arent the streets of bengladesh and new dehli or whatever littered in steph curry jerseys? There arena plan is crap and their ownership groups collective wealth is still probably worth less than balmers f@ckin tennis shoes. Everyone needs to just chill out…..
So they lose roughly 35% of their parking spaces but only 8% of the estimated money? HMM thats suspect
In actuality instead of 213 million it equals out to roughly 150 million from 1700 parking spaces. But thats just me and Im not very good with arithmetic
Seems like a lot of effort and wasted money for no reward. Surveys, studies and land purchases cost money, and I don’t see the NBA fronting that money for this kind of backroom deal…
I am with Brian on this all the way.
Every revenue source I ever prodded elected officials about were the revenue streams currently in the plan, “stadium” taxes that do not go to the general fund, or a “jock tax”.
I thought the Renton plan was bad, but Renton’s choice, just as this is Sacramento’s choice. But this is not a choice I would make for Seattle.
At the end of it, that what really pisses me off about Nick’s lack of integrity on the arena plan, I have zero respect for him.
This was probably posted earlier but I thought it was kind of funny
Field of Schemes @fieldofschemes 40m
.@panthiesba If Sacto council will have to vote again (post-4/2) on an actual financing plan, that might raise some NBA eyebrows, yes.
panthies @panthiesba 40m
@fieldofschemes sounds like it. Essentially, this is a worthless piece of paper?
Field of Schemes @fieldofschemes 32m
@panthiesba It’s a piece of paper with a really detailed drawing of another piece of paper on it.
Yeah, If we are denied and H/B/N weren’t in on it from the beginning in exchange for expansion, H/B/N (and the City) are done with the league IMO. The relationship between the league and Seattle is just now being repaired, saying no and leaving Hansen empty handed in April would lose all that progress and put them right where they were In 2008, if not worse.
My point is that maybe no-one knows what the BOG will decide, even the BOG, but that’s no reason not to try. Successful businessmen become successful by taking risks. Given the size of the Seattle bid I think it was reasonable risk to think Sac might not be able to come up with a successful bid and likely still is. Just like the sport itself, that’s why they play the game.
Yeah, if Seattle comes out of this with nothing it would certainly damage the market even further. But the NBA already torched it pretty bad in 2008, so maybe they don’t care.
The term sheet isn’t a final agreement. Just an outline of concepts with details TBD. This is why its non binding. The Seattle MOU has all the pesky details outlined and is binding.
Can we please just ban Seafanatic, already? The guy isn’t posting here with straightforward intentions. He’s an anti-arena troll in sheeps clothing. His name says it all. Non sports fans deem us fans “fanatics”. He’s basically admitted what he’s doing. He ranted about how the ILWU lawsuit was going to succeed, lied about being a UW law student when people didn’t listen to him, he posts on StR, and goes on about expansion. ALL HE DOES IS TRY TO STIR UP CRAP. AND WE ARE LETTING HIM SUCCEED. He’s adding absolutely nothing to the conversation here. He’s a parasite to this blog. At least Traven is semi-reasonable and agreeable some of the time.
Of course if the move does happen, the Sacramento market will be damaged even more than it has been.
I don’t know where Seattle will ever find a mayor willing to work with an investor group over another arena deal given that both Nickels and McGinn will have both lost their jobs over the NBA.
Nothing against the Kings fan that posted on here just a bit ago. Dude seemed totally cool. But I find it amusing how so many Sac fans scream “hypcrites!” at us, only to follow up with, “You guys can go take the Bucks, instead.” Funny.
I agree with you, this is very reasonable, far more so than a lot of the posts on here today. I think it’s at least just as likely, if not more so, that both Seattle and Sac’s groups are acting in earnest and neither are totally certain of what the NBA is going to do. At the very least, it’s the only scenario we have the facts to operate on and have a discussion not based entirely on speculation about.
How much of that is lost if they pursue another team? It seems to me more of it is lost if they do not. And my argument is they will get some sort of ‘return’ if they lose.
Making a timeline and repairing the relationship with SAC would be much easier than losing this ownership group and market for a generation. You can’t cut off someone you’re currently trying to repair things with, then its over. Repairing things with SAC can be done especially if the fence mending they’ve done here since 2008 was sincere and the move is approved.
I’d rather have the Pacers and their favorable cap situation.
Not sure why you’re constantly hitting moderation. I haven’t added any thing recently to the spam/ban list. I’ll dig a bit deeper when my brain has a bit more cognitive functions.
+1 on EJ here. There’s a lot of the whole “I’ll act supportive but only have cynical and doubtful things to say” subversive approach going on here. I was actually going to comment about how the worst thing I’ve seen on any Sac sites is the Sac Bee commenters that I’m nearly 100% sure are from Seattle acting like conscientious objectors from Sac. It’s gross.
So you say there is a back room deal to get them to bid but no back room deal for what you made up to make sense. Ok.
I think the most obvious answer is the right answer. Hansen purchased land in downtown Seattle, put together a strong ownership group, has an arena plan, the went after the 1st team that could be moved the soonest. He made an overwhelming offer to the Maloofs (something nobody in Sacramento had the money, brains, or nuts, to do). The Maloofs agreed to sell pending league approval.
That still where this is at.
Totally agree. I am still not finding an NBA game a can’t miss opportunity.
That return better be an guaranteed team from elsewhere, nothing else will help Hansen much. “some sort of return” won’t cut it.
Absolutely agree with you, Peter.
Hansen is into this for $100 million or so at this point (land purchase, the $30 mil non-refundable payment).
The NBA has 5 years to fill Hansen’s demand, which they encouraged, for a team. Saying no right now doesn’t mean anything will materialize in the near term.
I don’t disagree. I was partially responding to the post that Stern or the NBA brought CH to the Maloofs. I don’t know if that is true, but my point is that could be true with no guarantees and still make sense for the Seattle group even knowing Sac would try and might even be successful in countering. Without a guarantee I’m not sure I would call that a backroom deal. More of an introduction.
You can’t scale back and go NHL only. Designs for NBA only is completely different than designs for NHL only. Nevermind the price tag is much higher.
What team and when? Seriously, Seattle NBA fans were seriously damaged and hurt in 2008. The NBA does it again?? . . . and expecially to such a viable ownership group with an awesome arena in the wings . . . that could probably absolutely be it for the Seattle market. We can’t be their punching bag. The present ownership group that is beting touted from Sacramento right now is worth about 25% of the Seattle group. That is a lot of money for the NBA to snub.
That is how it happens with franchises. The potential buyer contact the franchisor of his/her desire to purchase a franchise. The franchisor puts the buy and seller together. Just how it is done. There is no reason for the Hansen group to just go knocking on the Maloof door. It all started in the NBA offices.
Part of my argument is that I don’t think the 30 million really can be guaranteed in California. And a lot of the other money is not lost if another team ends up being acquired. Maybe Adam Silver does have expansion on his mind. I believe Stern when he says he won’t consider it tho.
Okay time for me to head for bed. I have been up before the sun came up this morning and I am starting to not make sense.
Just rememer fellow Sonics fans . . . the Hansen group is in first place for the BOG vote. The Sacramento bid is just back up. Nothing more. The NBA has to say “no” to the Hansen group before anything from Sacramento will be considered. It is all good.
The $30M has been paid. Do you think that the Hansen group will go to Maloofs and demand it back when it was written into the PSA as a non-refundable deposit? No, they won’t. Not if they want to continue to carry on business with anyone.
SACRAMENTO CURRENTLY DOES NOT HAVE A BID.
That’s a heck of a way to lose $30 million dollars. Peope can pretend that he isn’t going to lose that money all they want, but that’s what got the Maloofs to let go of wanting to retain a minority share.
That is true . . . so there is nothing that can be considered. But that can’t happen until and if the BOG votes “no” on the Hansen group purchase. It is all back up . . . whatever it is.
I don’t know if you’ve worked in any sort of legal or industrial field, but these studies are 1-shot deals. Things change year to year; property values go up and down, environmental impact is assessed differently due to more advanced technology… You can’t take a study done last year and apply it to this year, you have to do the study over again, especially environmental studies (which I believe is mandated by the EPA and Federal Law, but I decided against taking Environmental Law, so I can’t be sure).
If Hansen/Ballmer are successful, that money isn’t wasted, just smartly spent in a bid to get the Sonics back, and will be repaid. If they are rebuffed by the League due to Sacramento, that money goes to waste.
Kingsfan- How do you supposed that last year 230 million was estimated for the 2700 parking spots over the time frame and now you lose 1000 spaces but it only goes down 17 million?
So you lose 35% (roughly) of your parking spaces but only 8% of the money from those spaces?
If you averaged the 35% lost spaces and took out 35% of the money it is 150 million dollars (roughly) not 213 million. How are they gonna explain that? Now maybe you create a new parking garage but that will cost money. Maybe increase parking prices at the risk of people not wanting to go downtown for things other than events. Gonna have some explaining on that one I would think
I guess a lot of ppl either can’t or don’t wanna do it themselves. ;P
EXACTLY. ACCURATE. TRUTH.
Non binding term sheet that will have to be negotiated and ratified after BoG denial of Hansen and approval of a bid, if the Maloofs accept the groups bid. Also why, if Hansen is out of the picture, would the Radavine group put up the amount Hansen is when Hansen is no longer involved? They wont, thus the Maloofs would have taken a loss when compared to what they would’ve gotten from Hansen and Ballmer.
So why again is the NBA going to turn down a perfectly good agreement between the Maloofs and Hansen while at the same time opening itself from litigation from the Maloofs who will want to re-coup the losses from not selling to Mr. Hansen. Furthermore, IF Hansen so CHOSE (because he doesnt wanna deal with the league) seek legal action against the league and/or the city of Sacramento for interference.
Why would the NBA turn down Hansen to open that pandora’s box? hmmmm? Remember the league doesnt have anti-trust exemption like MLB. Also remember that the strong market economically is Seattle. The stronger ownership group is from Seattle. The deal is with Seattle. Finally, Sacramento has had near a decade to get a deal of this nature done. Last year aside, why not a few years ago?
I don’t work in any of those fields but I do see your point. For anything other than the land purchase to be salvageable they better get a team pretty quick. And even that sits fallow in the mean time. It’s a risk. I still bet they go after another club rather than walk away if they don’t get the Kings
*sigh* just hit tab and you’re an expert. Lol
To any Kings fans lurking here and reporting back to StR all giddy about fans here getting nervous. This is nothing new. We’ve been going through our fight for over 5 years now. This site is a sort of support group. We get excited, freak out, argue, talk each other off the ledge, get excited again, etc.” It’s been that way for a long time here. I’m sure you guys do the same over at your place (which I don’t read, and highly suggest others here avoid as well, for sanity’s sake).
You do realize that the political landscape may change next year in Seattle and most likely will change. Things change so the MOU has a 5 year life span but the possibility of other things wrecking the process could come up theoretically. Plus you cant guarantee that there will be another owner willing to sell in the next 2-3 years to get another team. You just cant.
The way I see it is that this has become bigger than just the NBA at this point. I believe that the NHL is waiting on this deal to go through and then the Coyotes will be coming as well. Now that is a theory but with the silence on the future of the Coyotes, when they could simply say, Quebec get ready or Ontario get ready. Plus the realignment that was recently ratified would be thrown off balance with a western coast team moving to the east coast.
Then you have the city of Seattle preparing to go to the USOC for the 2024 Olympics (doubtful it amounts to much) but you will need a new arena (for certain) to make a legitimate pitch and that pitch has to come soon. A lot of tea leaves look like something bigger than just a Kings move but the Kings are the first chip that needs to fall because of the M.O.U.
Not to mention our milestones were reached, our cards played, etc. months ago. Our last big announcement was the January PSA press release. After that, we’ve been left on radio silence, while our group does their thing. It’s not as easy to make sure everybody stays perfectly on message when you don’t have press conferences and other things going on. We’re just fans, left to discuss the goings on of our own accord for 2 months running now.
you mean “stalking horse”… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking_horse
thanks … I always wanted to know the definition of that phrase, now you made me look it up. :)
Except that at the ASG presser, Adam Silver said he was against expansion, even more so than Stern. Sorry.. just not buying that theory.
I don’t even think Silver could get expansion if he wanted it, Stern has a lot of power from the owners that comes from his tenure and how rich he’s made the owners of the league, Silver has none of that clout.
THIS. Thank you Baker. :)
Where is it reported/written the NBA “invited” Hansen to purchase the team from the MaGoof’s ? Speculation or documented ?
If you want to adhere to the term “invited”, maybe not, but Woj reported back in October that Stern was pressuring the Maloofs to sell to the Seattle group.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba-david-stern-s-final-act-promote-the-myth-of-david-stern-25321709.html
“To help make the bonds more creditworthy, the city is using roughly $20 million a year in hotel tax revenue as potential cushion, officials said.”
from http://www.sacbee.com/2013/03/23/5287542/mayor-city-reaches-agreement-on.html#storylink=cpy
Wow. They’re using $20 mil of the hotel motel taxes as a cushion. PER YEAR. And that money is normally a cushion or direct add to the general fund, correct? Man this sounds sketchy to me.
City Council has to vote by Tuesday? Talk about the public getting bent over a barrel with no lube….
that’s why you stall as long as possible to release details. They could have released this Thursday but then you have to go to the public meetings they had and tell the public how much of a hackjob this is.
If their city council has any sort of integrity, they should vote no. Screwing over the future and the populace in Sacramento that couldn’t give a rats ass about the Kings for this deal is a travesty.
Exactly we will see the outcry but it will be mostly after the council has done its job to get it to April 3rd but thats when it dies because the league will have the same concerns and hear the outcry from the public. Lawsuits will be filed even if they arent yet ripe. They will still have to see the courtroom like ILWU did. The NBA will actually have some reservations if the arena opponents do their homework and file the right type of suit.
True; the city would be wise to say no. For all the grief we had and gave in 2008 the city ended up getting a far better deal by waiting. It may not have been their intentions at the time but thats what ended up happening
I think it’s fair to criticize the deal, aspects of the deal, and to weigh on on how we’d feel about it here in Seattle, but I don’t think we should bother prescribing what the Sacramento City Council should do for Sacramento’s present or future. We don’t know that city particularly well, and obviously we want them to vote no for our own reasons, so our perspective is understandably biased.
Granted,my opinion doesn’t climb high on the NBA/NHL ladder but I “think” it would be much worse then 2008. I would venture to say it could be a death blow for the NBA/Seattle relations for a very long time but again,this is only what I “think” and certainly not a matter of fact.
I’m still confused how this has turned into a bidding war. Maybe I’m to optimistic but I just don’t see how BoG can deny Hansen and then turn around and start dealing with the Maloofs. Just one fan’s opinion….looking forward to the day of seeing the NBA and NHL in Seattle
KB
Yes, that is true. But in comparing the two arena deals…makes me glad to say that I live here rather than there. I still see no reason to hit the panic button. I still like our chances a helluva lot better than Sacramento’s.
Thanks. Can Sac Council vote without public meeting/process? Is this legal? If so, smart move on KJ’s timing of the release. We all know Sac Council is supportive, but were they part of the negotiations? Is it assumed they will just vote in favor due to the April 3rd time constraints and then worry about the details later ? Do they have a legal due diligence process that needs to be followed ?
Anybody think that the NBA may not like being the centerpiece of a downtown economic revitalization project? What if the inherit risk of failure comes to fruition? Then the NBA may become a scapegoat because of supposed failure because of the city of Sacramento having lofty expectations based off this arena. Multiple economic studies have proven that arena projects dont do much for the economy. Im not down playing the jobs at all at the arena BUT when they are saying that it will create 6,000 construction jobs through a domino effect it becomes misleading. Yes those construction jobs will be their in the short term BUT long term they wont be. Once the arena/adjacent projects are completed then its back to the status quo.
If I was the NBA I wouldnt want to be used in a PR campaign as the savior of a cities downtown especially when the league knows that the impact of an arena is negligible the majority of the time. Now I know that wouldnt be something that sways the B.O.G. but it is something the league may use. They arent expected to be that in Seattle. Yes the job creation in the short term is SODO is great and all the traffic jobs is great as well but they arent being as billed as being so important to the cities economy.
Im not sure the legalities on it but Im sure they will vote anyways. Im wondering what kind of lawsuits may come up in the next ten days, ripe or not
I agree, I guess there is a virtue to being totally willing to be the villain if it’s for what you think is right, like our council has shown. At the very least it forces due diligence and a thoughtful, slow grind of a process.
Yeah, it does seem like a risky deal, but if they want to do it, it’s none of our business. If enough voters hate it, they can probably find a way to stop it. If not enough do, again, none of our business.
I’m not saying CH won’t keep trying if this falls through, but AFAIK there are no other teams who have a lease expiring anytime soon. And, of the teams that have been mentioned (Pacers and Bucks mostly), none of them have come close to exhausting all the possibilities of getting an arena done in their current market. Leagues don’t move on a whim, they move only when a situation has either completely deteriorated (Sacramento Kings), or has failed to work as an expansion (Atlanta Thrashers), otherwise you end up looking vagabond and that kills fan support.
Also, I don’t know if the Kings were the plan all along, but they’re the plan now and until this is denied by the BOG and we see the fallout, there’s just no point in discussing what might happen next.
What about the actual bid to buy the team ?
I can’t speak as to whether or not any of these things are not the case for certain, as I am simply not aware of them; however, what I do know is that the only procedural law that has been mentioned as relevant is the need for any item to be discussed/voted on at a city council hearing must be posted on the agenda, in public, with a brief description, 72 hours ahead of time. There does not appear to be any law on the books about just how much time they need to take considering things like this, and obviously the public workshops were pretty much a sham, with the deal being announced approximately two-tenths of a second after the last one.
It’s assumed the city council will just go along for a few reasons. First, they have been in line with KJ from the beginning, it seems unlikely they cross him here. Second, the intense political pressure with the shortened timeframe might be insurmountable in a city that seems singularly focused on this issue. Finally, it’s non-binding, none of it really matters. They can vote one way to show something to the NBA, and if the BOG went their way, they can get down to the nitty gritty then. I have no doubt that’s factoring into some thinking down there.
trolltossin, I have no idea how the NBA feels. I’ve voiced before that I don’t think the idea of a sports arena as the centerpiece of your economic strategy is a wise one, as it’s not strongly evidence based nor do I think the upside is there. The NBA might be worried that they’ll be seen as a cautionary tale if an entire city goes all in on them and collapses, but they also might be nonchalant, arrogant jerks like they can be and assume none of the fallout will stick to them in the long run either way.
Oh yeah you know that KJ is talking to the city council saying its non-binding and we will clean up the mess later. Just vote it through so he has some teeth to get the BoG to overturn Hansen. Without it this is done. The council vote is a foregone conclusion
Also, I don’t know if the Kings were the plan all along
It appeared this time last year that the team was staying there, and the arena plan was moving forward here anyway. So I doubt they’ve been the plan all along.
Yeah, I should have said that I don’t think the Kings were the plan all along. One of the things I like most about the way CH handled this is that he didn’t go after the Kings until it became 100% clear that the process with Sacramento had failed and the team began to openly flirt with every city that would take a meeting.
This is why I see absolutely no contradiction with what he said in that interview about not prying a team away and what has happened here. Sacramento has had many chances to get this done and didn’t.
They have until April 3 to come up with that. And again, it only comes into play if the BoG REJECTS the H/B/N deal.
We dont know one way or another. The Maloofs have taken the black eye from last years negotiations BUT how do we know that the Maloofs werent getting set up for a crappy deal. The league could have known but just had the Maloofs do the dirty work to get out of it. The rhetoric is that the NBA was involved with negotiations but lets be realistic they are in all these negotiations dealing with NBA venues with a team or not
Plus the two guys financing that plan Mastrov and Ranadive could possibly give the Nordstroms a run for the most net worth but that would be sans Hansen and san Ballmer. Put it this way you could argue the Nordstroms have more equity than Mastrov and Ranadive
*sigh*
Sometimes, things are just what they are and nothing more.
Chris Hansen and an extremely strong ownership group and comprehensive arena plan has a binding Purchase Sale Agreement from the Maloofs and an application to move them to Seattle. Teams are worth more with the option to move. This deal has been vetted for months and the process has been followed to a T for who knows how long. That’s it, that’s all. Simple. The NBA will need to work out how to treat Sacramento when the Kings leave. That is how cold the NBA is - go watch Sonicsgate on youtube again if you need to.
One would think that would not be encouraging to the NBA. As we know the devil is usually found in the details. I would expect the NBA would want to be fairly certain the Arena financing would truly pencil out before rejecting the already vetted Hansen PSA in front of them. Our lawsuits appear to be frivolous/easily mitigated and exempted. And where’s the bid that seriously needs to be financially upgraded to even merit consideration from the NBA ?
Exactly why I believe that the NBA will approve Hansen and Ballmer and April will be an incredible month for Seattle
Yeah, I watch Shark Tank. I know how these things work. :)
I know it’s late, so this probably won’t be read, but I agree completely.
Sometimes we seem to be over-thinking the situation. I know, we’re Seattle sports fans and it’s in our nature, but we all need to relax. Nothing has happened that wasn’t expected and H/B/N’s position with the BOG is still the same.
And besides, this whole idea that H/B/N are going to just give up if this doesn’t go our way is a little short-sighted. Perhaps I’m looking at them simplistically, but they don’t strike me as the type of businessmen that would just go “well, we tried once, it didn’t work, so screw it.” If that were the case, I doubt any of them would be as successful as they all are. Hansen has said on numerous occasions that this was the part of the process (team acquisition) that was going to take the most patience. And if they do have to go after another team in another city, I don’t buy that the leases in those cities are necessarily deal breakers. Hell, Bennett got out of his here! The point is, any lease can be broken, no matter how “iron-clad” it may seem. You just need the right attorney to go thru it.
But none of that matters yet. Let’s cross that bridge when we come to it.
April 3rd and 19th still can’t get here soon enough.
Not to take anything away from the fine people in Sacramento trying to keep their team , but we “lost” our sonics and I just want our sonics back! First and foremost thanks.
If this is a new tax, that is fine. If this is an old tax . . . not good. I think Safeco (or maybe it was the CLink) was partially paid by a NEW hotel tax so that it didn’t take money out of the city revenues.
I kinda wish they wouldn’t have released any newer arena renderings, like the inside n such yet. Maybe waited until after the vote. Now It will sting that much more.
This is an existing tax.
Hopefully this goes past the 3rd, instead of calling off the vote, and telling seattle to withdraw. Some think it’s too strong of a plan, and won’t even get to a vote. Pretty optimistic. I’m thinking our plan is good enough to warrant a vote.
The only way I would withdraw is if we either were promised in writing an expansion team for 14-15 or I was directed to another owner willing to sell and given a guarantee in writing when I buy that team the league would not interfere and cut off that city immediately and tell them that their team is moving.