Cautious optimism. That is the way most of us have been trying to approach our situation ever since Chris Hansen’s arena proposal first surfaced a year ago.
At first, ‘optimism’ was the challenge of that phrase. We had been beaten down for four years and had no reason to truly believe that our local government would step up the way they needed to, no matter how good of a deal Hansen presented them. We really had no reason to believe at the time that Hansen could come through either.
We forced ourselves to be optimistic.
After we went through a very stressful several months and the arena was finally approved (pending EIS, SEPA, and a confirmation vote by the councils), and as we went through a couple months of silence followed by the jubilant news that Hansen had reached a binding sales agreement with the Maloofs, ‘cautious’ became the challenge.
We continue to force ourselves to be cautious, but I gotta say that it is getting harder and harder. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I am running out of reasons to be afraid.
Why do I say that? Let’s do a comparison of our situations. Seattle and Sacramento.
How do our ownership groups compare?
They have Mastrov and Burkle, which is a pretty good group, except that Mastrov is only worth $350 million and Burkle isn’t really even part of the ownership group. He is focusing solely on the arena, unless the news of the AEG sale not happening causes him to be more willing to spend money on the ownership side.
We have Hansen, Ballmer, and the Nordstroms, every one of which is wealthier than Mastrov and Ballmer is wealthier than Burkle.
Advantage Seattle.
How do our ownership bids compare?
The Sacramento group has made an offer for the NBA to consider. However, Stern said last week that it won’t be considered until the money is increased enough to be comparable to Seattle’s offer. There have been reports of that bid being any where from $75 million to $100 million short. They say they will up their offer. We shall see if they do and, if so, by how much.
Funny thing. Since Stern’s announcement, I don’t hear anyone in Sacramento beating the relocation fee drum or the loan repayment drum. As Stern said, the bid values are fairly straight forward.
The Seattle group has a signed purchase agreement for a much higher dollar figure as stated above. For Sacramento to even have a chance to talk to the Maloofs, the NBA has to say no to an ownership group that is, according to Stern’s numerous statements, very strong and that is offering much more money.
Advantage Seattle.
How do our markets compare?
From a television point of view, Sacramento ranks as the 20th largest, depending on who you ask. From a corporate support point of view, Sacramento has a total of zero Fortune 500 companies.
Seattle’s TV market ranks 13th or 14th and has a total of eight Fortune 500′s, according to the “biased” Chris Daniels.
Some say that the fact that Seattle has several competing pro teams compared to Sacramento’s none offsets the TV and corporate advantages on our side. I don’t buy it.
Advantage Seattle.
How do our relationships with the NBA compare?
This is the one area where I think Sacramento has an edge.
Kevin Johnson loves the NBA and the NBA loves Kevin Johnson. In addition to his history as a player, KJ has worked his butt off to come up with a solution for the NBA and Stern has gone out of his way to help. Imagine if we had someone like that leading the way for us five years ago.
Seattle, on the other hand, is still dealing with scar tissue from the past. I think Stern would like to put a team here, but is still pridefully miffed about being publicly scolded by Frank Chopp. Then there is the lingering resentment by many in Seattle toward the NBA.
That said, things have undeniably improved in Seattle since the disaster of 2008. We have different political leadership that found a way to say yes. We have a proactive ownership group that is well organized and is willing to jump through all of the NBA’s hoops. We also have Ballmer, about whom Stern has publicly salivated.
Things are getting better and the gap is rapidly closing, but there are still issues to work out between Seattle and the NBA.
Advantage Sacramento.
How do our fan bases compare?
Their fans are great. Our fans are great. Both cities have a proud history of supporting their teams and both cities saw that support diminish due to long stretches of really bad ownership decisions. I don’t know how @sonicarena’s ticket commitment effort will compare to the one Sacramento did a month or so ago and I don’t care.
No advantage either way.
How do our arena situations compare?
To be frank, this one isn’t even close.
Burkle is in negotiations with Sacramento to build an arena in a different location than the one that was approved by local officials last year. We don’t know what public/private ratio is being negotiated. We don’t know how willing Burkle is to be reasonable.
According to the link below, several different entities own many different parcels of land on the proposed site. In other words, they don’t have the land acquired that they need. It can be done, but real estate purchase and development takes time (as does negotiating with government entities).
http://ow.ly/iUfa3
And April 3 approaches rapidly.
On the Seattle side? Hansen already owns all the land he needs. The city and county have both approved their MOU’s. The finances are set. A couple of weeks ago, Hansen got the go ahead from the arena architectural review panel to pursue a Master Use Permit. While Sacramento negotiates an arena deal on land that none of the significant parties own yet, Hansen continues to generate AMAZING arena renderings he has been working on for over a year.
The only things - and I do mean the only things - we are waiting for are the results of EIS and SEPA, as well as the confirmation votes by both councils after both studies come back.
Yes there are lawsuits to resolve, but they aren’t really a threat and Sacramento is starting to hear from citizen groups of its own now.
Advantage Seattle. Check that. HUGE advantage Seattle.
Bottom line?
I really feel like the Sonics will be playing at Key Arena this fall. Our advantages are numerous. Even if the Sacramento group increases its offer to match Hansen’s, Seattle’s real estate ownership advantage alone would likely be enough to convince the BOG.
I still encourage cautious optimism, but it’s getting harder and harder to follow my own advice.
NOTE: I am aware of the latest reports involving Kehriotis, but I am not going to add this as a “reason to be afraid” until I actually hear what this plan of his is. I need to know things like…
Where does he plan to build the arena? Does he need to acquire land? Who is the financial muscle behind him? How much does he plan to finance through debt? Why didn’t KJ latch on to this idea?
When was Stern “publicly scolded” by Chopp?
Wait WHAT?! BUT BUT BUT I thought Sacramento’s arena is far ahead of ours. LOL
Yeah all the advantages at this point are for Seattle in my estimation. The only reason Sac still has a claim to having a chance is because of Kevin Johnson. Pretty much if it was anyone else this wouldve been over a while ago. Still it may have be done since the PSA was announced and relocation filed. We will find out soon; I just wish April would get here already.
On top of everything else, Kings fans are bragging about artificially padding the Sonics wait list numbers yesterday in an attempt to hurt Seattle.
Just wondering, does that make sense to anyone?
Wait… What? How the hell does that make any sense what-so-ever?
Yeah, let’s go pledge a bunch of money to HereWeBuy! That’ll show ‘em! HAHAHAHAHA!
They think that because they put up “good faith” dollars to the cause that theirs is more credible. Isnt the fact that we arent putting out false dollar amounts better? Either list wont do much to sway the B.O.G. Only way its helpful is for Seattle if Hansen can say I have “x” thousands-tens of thousands on a priority wait list and so many for each kind of ticket package (season, flex pack, single game, suites, etc.) . I dont see Sacramento’s list as helpful whatsoever possibly even hurtful with only 5-6,000 if compared to 50,000-100,000 for Seattle.
They are gonna spin anything they can. After the BoG approves sale and relocation they will spin the narrative to whatever fits their dying gasps for keeping the team. Like RoFR (not an issue IMO) and other things like lawsuits (though they dont even have a lease) or the loan needing to be re-paid
I have no clue. I thought I was missing some genius plot in which adding fake names to a ticket registry would unravel Hansen’s entire deal.
“To have the speaker of the house say well, they just spend too much money on salaries anyway, so we need it for other things,” Stern said, casts aspersions on the whole league’s operations. “We get the message. Hopefully, maybe cooler heads will prevail.”
He was referring to a remark by House Speaker Frank Chopp last February when funding for a new arena in the Seattle suburb of Renton was proposed.
“They ought to get their own financial house in order when their payroll is over $50 million for, what is it, 10 players? I think that’s a little ridiculous,” Chopp said at the time. “They need to get their own financial house in order and if they did, they wouldn’t have to ask for public help.”
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/sonics/2007-11-08-stern-comments_N.htm
He basically told Stern that if he wanted the money for an arena, to take it out of the overpaid players’ salaries- or at least, that’s how Stern perceived those remarks.
Here We Buy= Carmichael Dave’s Ponzi Scheme……wonder how much he will make? LOL
He is taking a month off from “work” for some shady dealings regarding the Hansen sale.
Yeah Im not sure what he is doing
What? is CMD going to become some documentarian about the evil Hansen and his nefarious dealings to steal the Kings?
It doesn’t make sense but it is more names to show the NBA we want a team. Thanks for helping Sac.
He’s planning his next career move, since he won’t really have a following once the Kings are gone from Sacto.
He hasn’t said exactly what he will be doing, but from his tweets it sounds like he is going to the slimier side (is that possible for him?) for this. He’s calling it Project Zero.
Well he said to his twitter followers from Sacramento that they will be seeing him. Maybe some door to door salesmanship or maybe some documentary references
He basically told Stern that if he wanted the money for an arena, to take it out of the overpaid players’ salaries– or at least, that’s how Stern perceived those remarks.
Apparently Stern agreed with Chopp that salaries where too high-hence the lockout. Still, I don’t think Chopp was scolding Stern personally, or saying that the money for an arena should come from players’ salaries. Although a lot of states do take money out of pro athletes’ paychecks, under the pretext of state income tax.
The only way I can think of that might make sense is that if they completely inflate the numbers to the point of ridiculousness. So if, for example 200,000,000 signed up for Sonics tickets, it might theoretically deflate the significance of the waitlist in general.
The fact that they feel like they HAVE to do this, however, tells me that they’re more nervous about the numbers on the list than they’re letting on.
So in other words he’s becoming James O’Keefe? That’s what I’m picturing anyway. “There’s no fire here, BUT I’M GONNA MAKE ME SOME!”
Well we had to give our address so it would be easy to weed things out. Hopefully they don’t drop my Baltimore address.
CMD’s Project Zero is a great name that matches his credibility on this whole situation.
No, but I assume the website can tell if someone is signing up from Seattle or Sacramento, so I assume they can weed out the troublemakers.
Stern took exception to it, however. In his eyes, Chopp was attacking the NBA’s business model, which Stern credits himself for creating.
Chopp said at the time. “They need to get their own financial house in order and if they did, they wouldn’t have to ask for public help.”
It’s easy to filter out bad/fake email addresses. Chances are they didn’t even make it into the list.
Yeah, not worried about it at all.
Paul, this is a well thought out post. I think you pretty much nailed all of it. I would say I don’t know that Stern “salivates” for Ballmer and I’m also not sure he was “publicly scolded” either. Stern does want Ballmer I’m sure and it was rocky between Seattle and Stern in the past but it’s equally rocky in both directions. Schultz/Stern demanded money on their own agendas without working with local governments or in the correct governmental agendas. Some local politicians told them we can’t do that at this time. Not to mention Stern had praised Seattle just a decade earlier for the arena we built them. It’s hard for me to accept that Stern was the victim in the Seattle vs NBA relationship.
Great post though! I am also cautiously optomistic with the optimism growing!
Stern took exception to it, however. In his eyes, Chopp was attacking the NBA’s business model, which Stern credits himself for creating.
I know. I’m just pointing out the irony/hypocrisy, since Stern a few years later said the lockout was necessary, because salaries were too high and the system was broken. And he doesn’t seem to mind that many states (although not WA) have a “jock tax.”
Sac fans are in for such a rude awakening.
I would say I don’t know that Stern “salivates” for Ballmer and I’m also not sure he was “publicly scolded” either. Stern does want Ballmer I’m sure and it was rocky between Seattle and Stern in the past but it’s equally rocky in both directions. Schultz/Stern demanded money on their own agendas without working with local governments or in the correct governmental agendas. Some local politicians told them we can’t do that at this time. Not to mention Stern had praised Seattle just a decade earlier for the arena we built them. It’s hard for me to accept that Stern was the victim in the Seattle vs NBA relationship.
Yes, I think Stern has done his best to exaggerate the degree to which the politicians were hostile, stubborn, unreasonable while downplaying the degree to which he, Schultz, and Bennett were hostile, stubborn, unreasonable.
I’ve got a question. Our new arena is going for around 490 mil to build. Why are others costing over a billion like barclays, or 850 mil renovation to madison square garden?
Are we getting one hell of a deal, or are we getting a “walmart arena” cheaply made/materials arena that basically cost half as much brand new?
Cost of land has a lot to do with the Barclays price and it is always more expensive to renovate than to build anew.
Maybe things just cost more in New York. This would still be one of the most expensive arenas ever. The most recent NBA arena to open, the Amway Center, cost $480 million. The arena deal in Sacramento that the Maloofs torpedoed would have been around $390 million.
(Of course Bennett and Stern only needed $100 million from Oklahoma to renovate their arena, which they weren’t even able to cover all of)
A great deal of Barclays center cost was the cost of the land I heard. Land isn’t figured into our arena, if it was it’d be more like $600-700 million.
Totally agree with you there!
Wouldn’t the reason that we don’t have pricing listed is because it has yet to be determined? And since Hansen is the actual owner, he might be held to pricing he sets now, something he isn’t ready to do? And the Sac effort is made by people who have no ties to the organization or authority to do anything of the sort?
Yeah.
New York metro is also about the only place in North America that could spend that much on a stadium OR arena. See new Yankee stadium, citi field, metlife stadium, etc.
New York 1st, Seattle 12th biggest market in US. Big difference there. More private money because of more corporate wealth. Also more public money because of way bigger population.
On top of the straight forward television market by households comparison:
From 2010 data:
TPI Total Personal Income (the total amount of income the population of the metro area brings in)
Seattle #12 $171,681,000,000
Sacramento #25 $85,746,000,000
Forbes also ranked Seattle has the #7 fastest growing city in the country, which takes into account economic and population growth. Sacramento’s market isn’t comparable in that regard, from what I can tell.
You’re right, although I think both the MSG renovation and the Barclays Center were privately financed.
I’m not buying the “Sac has the advantage in TV and corporate $ because they only have 1 team” either. First of all, if you count that we are the largest market in the US by far (It’s not even close) w/ only 2 major pro teams, we are arguably the most pro sports starved market in the US. There are a great deal of markets that are much smaller or similar in size to us with 3 or even 4 major teams (CLE, DEN, MIN, PHX, PIT?, STL?, soon to be SF to name a few) second, SAC has 0 fortune 500 corps. None.
Barclays require a lot if mitigation for traffic reasons and I think something to do with the subway line by it if I remember. And Madison square garden was renovating an aging arena so there is a lot of problems doing that in a place like NYC that has tons of infrastructure to worry about. Also amway center is huge compared to most because it ha tons of office space in addition to the arena. Ours will be way up there in cost.
Yessum, that would be correct.
I guess that makes sense then, that they added in the land cost. I know land is WAY overpriced in NY. Kind of like the tiny land parcels costs more than the summer mansions at lake chelan.
I hope they add a huge video board like jerrys world, but I’m not sure how much that would block the view from the rings way up there. Hmmm.
There was something I read not that long ago that used that stat to say Seattle could support a second NFL team. Not sure if that would be possible or if the source is credible (really can’t remember, damn illness and slow mind right now). Cool to think about though.
Still, our $490 mil arena is more than ORL’s $480 mil, and probably the second most expensive new arena (third if you count MSG redo) in N. American HISTORY, and the most expensive in history outside of NY metro. That’s Huge.
Sac would never have the advantage for TV and it’s BECAUSE they only have one team.
One team in town = No RSN
Sac’s current TV deal nets about $12M/year. Hansen’s could reach $60M.
I heard where ORL’s arena initial cost was something like $425 mil, so I think there were some cost overruns if it ended up being $480 mil. Just because the initial cost is $490 mil here, that doesn’t mean our arena will end up being $490 mil. Although Hansen is solely responsible for cost overruns, so I think they’ll do their best to avoid them. But $h!t happens.
I may be wrong but I think our deal includes land as well. The city will be buying the land up to the $200 million mark (assuming both teams). I could be remembering wrong what they decided on that.
Kinda LT, but I was walking around US Airways Center today, and that is a great little area. Lots of new construction, bars, restaurants and the way the stadium and neighborhood tie in with the D’backs stadium right next door makes me salivate for what Sodo could be if the M’s would get off their high horse.
The Seattle Port Commission approved a 600% pay increase
http://bit.ly/YA8MDP
Barclays center billion dollar cost had the cost of buying land factored in. So using that logic, we’re gonna have at least a $690 mil arena.
Plus the fact that there is more passion for the Giants, Niners and Raiders than the Kings right now.
Those are working class jobs (sarcasm).
aeg has peaced out in sactown arena involvement . its over i agree with someones comment about the freddy brown plan, sacs is pie in the sky. sonics will be home soon for now ill just be playing nba jam handing the okies asses to them. the wait is almost over.
Go Pork of Seattle. Family wage jobs yeah right.
http://blogs.seattletimes.com/northwestvoices/2013/03/14/seattle-port-commission-approves-600-percent-pay-increase/#.UUMmp17aJyU.twitter
Which Council members ally themselves with the Pork? Conlin? Loser Licata?
Pretty sure that included demolition costs as well.
With that report on the Pork, Peter Steinbrueck just handed his opponents a 9,000 lb hammer to bust his ass with throughout the primaries.
*silent fist pump and smile.*
Maryland related, don’t get excited over some inside info or something like that.
Deaths penalty vote? Or the team?
Up 12-2 on Duke right. Best start I’ve seen from them in a while.
I like how Bruski makes such a big deal about our I-91 and Longshoreman suit but is first to brush off the potential suit in Sac and say how frivolous that one is
Chris Daniels @ChrisDaniels5
JUST IN: Seattle City Attorney files a motion to dismiss lawsuit filed by backers of Initiative-91. #SeattleArena
Chris Daniels @ChrisDaniels5
JUST IN: Holmes motion says “this action is not ripe”. Oral arguments now scheduled to be heard on April 12th, one week before NBA BOG vote.
Hopefully that will get tossed right there and then.
An interesting thing about the current Madison Square Garden that was just renovated at a price of about 1 billion dollars: MSG sits on City owned land, the City now wants use of the land, and is telling MSG that they have to move. The MSG lease is about over, and the City is saying that they do not want to renew it. The 1 billion dollar renovated MSG may be torn down. The City says MSG has moved twice, and can do it again. You would think they would have told MSG before they plopped 1 billion dollars into the building. Incredibly crazy.
It would suprise me if Holmes were successful in having the I-91 case thrown out.
Well then it will get thrown out if you think it wont
The Kings, more than likely, will be in Seattle next year; it would have been nice if the wait list had at least had estimated price ranges for seating at Key Arena. I would think that Hansen had already penciled out the pricing as the Key Arena is a known entity. The claims of Sacramento fans that they flooded the Seattle wait list is ludicrous. They are grasping at straws. We are not in Sacramento; I bet that on the ground in Sacramento, their keeping the Kings is looking more and more hopeless. Now, it seems the fans in Sacramento will just say anything, no matter how stupid what they are saying is.
I know you’ve got your fingers crossed.
Great article, Paul.
I would add that we have a few other distinct advantages, probably already mentioned above, but I haven’t read yet:
1) Sac will be a net recipient of revenue sharing. Annually.
2) Seattle will be a net giver of revenue for revenue sharing. Annually.
3) NBA owners all get to evenly split the relocation fee, which will be anywhere from $30 million to $75 million. That’s around $1 mil to $2.5 mil per owner. In the pocket. This has got to make it on their short list as a good reason to move the team.
4) NBA REALLY wants to get rid of the Maloofs. We have a signed PSA that allows them to do this. This is the easy path to get rid of them.
5) The NBA owners are really unlikely to take a $30 million dollar dump on the likes of Hansen and Ballmer, which is in essence what would happen if they decline to move the team. What would that say to other billionaires who want to enter the market? They know this would be a terrifically bad move to make.
Hey, I don’t think it will get thrown out. If you think that it will, fine. We will see.
Good point, Peter.
another good point, you are on a roll :)
Bingo. We outshine them in every respect when it comes to the TV market.
Don’t forget Tampa Bay, they have 3 teams and their metro is less populated than Seattle’s.
At the risk of sticking my hand directly in to the trolls mouth; Do you actually believe the arena deal isn’t compliant with I-91, or do you think it’s too early in the process, or…?
Little wayne in induced coma. Multiple seizures, with large amount of codene found in his system. Critical condition.
Great post, Paul. Not a lot of conjecture, just the facts.
I keep thinking about which city is better positioned to grow the NBA brand? This has to be one of the most important questions the owners have to answer next month. Their business model isn’t just about today, it’s what happens over the next several decades.
The answer is obviously Seattle. We’ve seen the statistics to support what we already know intuitively. Seattle’s population is 50% greater than Sacramento’s, Seattle has a larger TV market, and Seattle has far more corporate money.
But what about market dilution? Won’t the Sounders, M’s, and Hawks take money out of the NBA’s hands? Yeah, right. Could you imagine David Stern sheepishly telling the owners, “Well guys, we just can’t compete against the MLS in Seattle. Cornering the market in a one-horse town like Sacramento is the better play.”
But what about OKC? They’re a rousing success, right? Isn’t that what Sacramento would be if they kept the team? Yes, some might even say OKC is following Sacramento’s lead. But the more important question is whether places like OKC and Sacramento are model cities in the NBA’s business plan? What would have happened if if a billionaire in San Diego matched exactly Clay Bennett’s offer in 2008? Would they be the San Diego Sonics now?
Did OKC just happen to be in the right place at the right time? Wasn’t Aubrey McClendon at the peak of his now-dwindled fortune at the same time Seattle was entering the Great Recession? What happens when Durant leaves?
Geography matters. I’ll bet more people know where Seattle is than Sacramento. I’ll bet that’s especially true in Asia, which is a target market of the NBA.
What about being trendy with the Millenials? What does Sacramento have that compares to Amazon and Microsoft and Nintendo and (ugh) Starbucks? Does Sacramento have a 40,000 student university?
In short, Sacramento may come up with a Hail Mary MOU, but they can’t make their city bigger, they can’t add Fortune 500 companies overnight, and they can’t move their city closer to Asia. They can’t grow the brand the way Seattle can, and that’s very, very important.
Have you actually read I-91 and see how it actually applies to this arena deal? If not then enough of it. I-91 is not ENFORCABLE.
Way to go Kevin
He thinks cause the city is providing funds in general that its not i-91 compliant. Nevermind that the city is not DIRECTLY providing funds. He thinks even burrowed money is illegal per I-91.
TERPS!!!! BEAT DUKE TWICE!!!!!
I’m light headed. I’m dizzy. I’m on cloud nine. So happy.
Kentucky getting blown out. Probably in the tournament. Oh my god.
Dez Wells.
*Fist pump*
If he isn’t, then the Council will just vote to exempt it. They don’t care about crossing the longshoremen, the Mariners or the Port anymore, none are power players.
Greivis Vasquez had 18-9-8 tonight.
Oh, all I said was I did not think that the I-91 suit would be thrown out. It might be thrown out. Eventually a Court will decide whether the arena proposal is I-91 compliant, or not. I do not conjecture as to what a Court will decide.
It is possible that this proposal be exempted from I-91. It might not be exempted from I-91. So, I do not conjecture about that. I don’t make definitive statements based upon conjecture. Saying “I think x” is not a definitive statement. Also, I have no interest in “power players” or political power plays.
So, We will see what happens with the Holmes effort to have this specific I-91 case thrown out.
I’m surprised there isn’t even a mention on the Seattle Times. He is one of the biggest celebrities in the nation/world, whether anyone likes it or not, lol.
I think it was a hoax. Apparently he tweeted that he’s fine.
hm. I guess we’ll see. I was just watching this interview from 2008 where he discusses his “syrup” addiction and withdrawals.
http://www.mtv.com/videos/news/213152/hip-hop-just-aint-hip-hop-without-me.jhtml#id=1582502
Bruski fired off a bunch of tweets a few hours ago and it has become the ramblings of an insane person. If there are any SAC fans lurking here…please explain to me why so many SAC supporters are claiming the arena website crashing had nothing to do with fan interest. You have to be insane to believe something different.
Chris Bosh with 28 pts so far tonight including a 4 pt play!
Oh and this game further promotes my claim that Wade plays like a b****. He falls so damn much and expects a foul on every shot he takes. It’s hard to watch and I like the Heat.
Maybe Chris Daniels should send him some helpful information.
This was answered last month at the SCC briefing. It is the land in ny, most of the other costs directly related to the arena are pretty close to our arena.
None of that is what I asked you though. I asked you *why* you think it won’t be thrown out. What are your reasons? I’m legitimately curious.
I predict that they will exempt the deal late April.
(The economic impact analysis will complete about the time the BOG votes to relocate the Kings to Seattle, giving the SCC an independent report to cover their political butts with.)
What actually worries me a bit about the I-91 lawsuit is the judge deciding that it as a whole is (as some have claimed) incoherent, poorly written, not enforceable, illegal, unconstitutional, etc. That may sound crazy coming from a Sonics fan, but I’m worried about Van Dyk setting off down the warpath again if he sees his life’s work destroyed.
Great post paul. I wonder if we’ll find out how many people signed up for the sonics waitlist.
Don’t initiatives only last two years and then they don’t have to be obeyed anymore? If they want I-91 to be obeyed they should have filed another initiative in 2008.
The court would find in favor of the city if it ever made to to trial. As I stated further up, the economic impact analysis will give the council something to point at as the exempt the arena plan from I-91 (Ordinance Number: 122357)
Ordinance Number: 122357
Section 2 of the ordinance states:
Fair value is defined herein as no less than the rate of return on a U.S. Treasury Bond of thirty years duration at the time of inception of any such provision of goods or services, real property or lease; and further, such return shall be computed as the net cash on cash return, after interest and any financing costs, on the depreciated value of the cash investment of the City of Seattle in such goods, services, real property or facility, and shall exclude all intangible, indirect, non-cash items such as goodwill, cultural or general economic benefit to the City, and shall also exclude unsecured future cash revenues.
“Cash on cash” was impossible to compute for the city finance folks because the city is not spending any “cash”. No cash goes out, that’s a zero, now do an interest calculation on zero “cash”.
The council freely admitted that this was the case, and that the law was poorly written, so they invented the “spirit of I-91″ as some kind of test. At that point they should have treated the Sonics plan fairly, having set a precedent with the Seattle Storm lease in 2009, and exempt the plan.
The city council were to chicken to do so, so now we have the BS court case.
It’s become expensive trash.
Any future initiative from CVD would take effect after it’s approved, not affecting the arena. It’s not retroactive.
Yes, they could repeal it but there is no political will to do that. They do have the power to exempt a plan, as they did with the Storm in 2009.
And that is why they don’t repeal it. They can “test” a proposal and the exempt it if the council even “feels” that a proposal meets the “spirit” of I-91, and that exactly how they “tested” the Storm lease, they “felt” it did, and as if my magic, viola, exemption.
I really think it’s going to come down to the April 3 presentations. I don’t think anything coming up between April 3 and the vote will change the owners minds after April 3. It’s a competition now between two different proposed sets of owners. David Stern didn’t seem concerned at all about the $30 million or any $$ Hansen et al have spent to date, that was clear from last weeks press conference. If Sacramento doesn’t get it’s act together by April 3, it’s over for them.
I don’t think the I-91 lawsuit will be dismissed on April 12 and I don’t think it’s a bad lawsuit either — in the end I-91 will/would be found compliant and thus the deal Hansen put together will only serve as “the way to meet I-91″ as tested in court and its a great model for any future deals like it. However, assuming the BOG approves the sale/relocation on the 18th or 19th, then I think Mike is right and it will be exempted.
Hey Kevin, let me know if you want turps gear. I’ll ship you some. I love the sonics rising community. I can’t wait until we have a who we are thread. I consider most of you my friends.
Dude, that would be awesome! There’s some stuff that I can’t get online that’s on campus and in the team shop.
kevin dot nesgoda at gmail is my email. Hit me up and we can work out payment such!
And we’re family here. :)
Chris Mannix from SI was on KHTK today in Sac, he said his NBA sources tell him the NBA wants back in Seattle and have the fortitude to move the Sac kings. He said that Sac would need to have an exceptional offer to have a chance to stay in the game.
Earlier this week Scott Howard Cooper was on KHTK and said that the NBA is not concerned about Seattle Arena Project or the lawsuits.
I’m curious how those sonic rings are going to work, since there’s no way to get to them in the rendering. Those things look so high up, their in the ceiling, lol. Wonder when a more defined rendering will come out? Hopefully with better corner angles as well for the hockey setup. “round seating”.
Kevin hopefully sent an email
Oh those “biased” national media guys. Why cant they just report facts like bruski and cmd…..
Kevin, it failed. Maybe because I am a little drunk. Hope all is well. I will send you done terps gear
I continue to be amazed at how blatantly biased and full of crap Bruski is. He spouts off tweets like tonight citing sources that likely include his dog, Carmichael Dave, and the StR message board. It’s just weird that there is seemingly no editorial oversight at ProBasketballTalk. Add never seeing his ugly black and white twitter picture ever again to the list of reasons to be excited for the BoG vote.
Or you could just unfollow him now…
OT: watching the Warriors/Bulls on NBATV now. Bulls are completely annihilating the Warriors. 103-68. Ouch!
Im guessing that this weekend will be a quiet weekend and then next week there will be a bunch of news either way coming from Sacramento
A pause for green beer and corned beef consumption.
I would think so too. They need to have their arena plans together next week. If they plan on submitting one, that is…
i never thought id be actively rooting against sacramento but here i am. 3 or 4 of these morons have absolutely tainted this fan base for me. i hope their “sources” comfort them next november.
I haven’t reached that point yet. Even if some of their fans, or Brewski or whoever are jackasses, or hypocrites, or lack self-awareness, etc., I haven’t gotten to the point where I says, “Yeah, let’s take the team, rip their hearts out, and make them suffer!” I know how much that hurts, and how much the fans their love their team. I ask myself, “What would an Okie do in this situation.” Then I do the opposite.
That’s why it’s hard for me to look forward to the outcome. Either I’ll be sad for us or sad for them.
Schoomsky, Roooski - - - Who cares about Bruski. He means nothing to this deal. Seriously, do you think the BOG cares about him or his tweets ? Why do we care? Why does he get so much attention here ? He’s not even worth making jokes about.
More serious note — - If Sac doesn’t fold their hand since their pretend bid is nothing but a house of cards - Do we think we will get any kind of news or leaks from the April 3rd BOG discussion ?
Testing my new gravatar avatar…fingers crossed!
Traven - Yeah I’m talking to you Traven: Why are you here ? You’ve added nothing valuable to the conversation. I certainly enjoy reading different points of view and thoughtful posts even if they are opposed to Hansen Group proposal. They give me the opportunity to weigh the facts and re- evaluate my view. They help educate me thru this whole process. However, you don’t or can’t even back up your own thoughts. No facts - nothing, nada, zippo.
Doubtful probably a bunch of Sacramento saying we feel confident in our presentation and that the NBA will side with them and that their fair and competitive offer will sway the BoG.
Hansen’s side wont say a thing and then we will wait. No concession at that point from Hansen’s side (cause there wont be) and we will know what the outcome is
Agreed. No way Hansen folds - not even a remote consideration. Just wondering if we will hear any news from Stern regarding the April 3 discussion. Or any leaks from the discussion.
Bruski, CMD and Traven will get no more keystrokes from me. If a Sac Fan or Hansen opponent wants to have reasonable discussion - then I will engage. Otherwise, I will simply ignore. Life’s to short.
Kevin, I hope you are feeling better. Hang in there !!
I will always, always feel bad for Sac Fans. I can’t control whether Sac Fans believe that or not. However, this is not about the Fans on either side. No matter how many Sac Fans want to call us hypocrites and cite Hansen’s statement of not wanting to “pry” a team away from a city. There are no ifs or maybe’s about this- - - - Sac’s broke ownership, the NBA business model, and their current “NO” to expansion has put us where we are today. MaGoof’s decided to sell the team to Hansen. I also will never ever buy that Sac was caught flat footed and were completely ignorant of the MaGoof’s decision to sell. The reported Facts simply do not support that Sac statement. It’s a sorry, sorry deal for Sac.
Don’t blame the Hansen Group - the NBA gave him no other option to get the NBA back in Seattle. So, while I feel incredible empathy for Sac Fans, because, yes, we do know how they feel. I refuse to feel guilty because there just isn’t any reason to. I can’t wait for Fall.
I agree with everything you just said. Especially the well wishes for Kevin.
IF Hansen didn’t have the votes needed for approval or was told by the BOG he would not be approved, I think he would fold. There’d be no sense in causing a scene the 18th-19th if you weren’t reasonably sure of a positive outcome. If we don’t hear anything it will likely be approved the 18th. Of course, if SAC has nothing at all, sale/relo could be approved right there on the 3rd. That’s how I see it.
The only way I think we wont be approved is if CH pulls back after the 3rd, and then I think he’ll be complicit with it and be working out a deal to get something in exchange for pulling back. Either way, we ought to be pretty sure where this is going to go after the 3rd.
At the risk of sounding cocky, I’m already pretty sure where this is headed.
Why would you think Hansen would pull back after the 3rd ?
I’m not sure why I should root against a fan base trying to do the same thing we tried five years ago.
There are certainly some thing being said that aren’t so nice about Seattle, but we surely called OKC names as well, back in the day when they wanted our Sonics.
Pretty much.
Those media dudes don’t have a vote and certainly won’t swing any votes of the BOG.
It’s up to the billionaires to convince the committee lead by Bennett to give an advice of who to vote for.
I think we’ll receive loads of “news” and “leaks” until then and after the 3rd of April, given how this has played out so far.
Though, I expect most news to be out of SAC and by the guys mentioned, trying to win the PR battle.
Still, even if KJ’s seen dancing on the streets of Sacramento with Carmichael Dave singing we did it, while Bruski’s “sources” tell everyone that this is the game changing moment, I won’t get nervous given the previous events.
They have to do so, to keep up the hope till the final vote and be able to say they did everything they could to keep the team, if it does leave.
Pretty much.
They’ll celebrate their new and game changing offer, that’s very fair and competitve this time around.
The only thing we’ll hear from Hansen is the number of people signing up for the ticket wait list.
BTW: Given all that talk about sources etc.
I always read those articles with a smirk on my face, when people say they’ve got sources telling them this or that.
That sources gal/dude must really be in the know about everything, as he’s being referred to by almost everyone on trades, free agency and even this topic. :lol:
Anyways, I’ve got a pretty clear relationship to this sources dude/gal and I always try to refer to it as something Carmelo Anthony compared opinions to in a article a couple years ago.
So I just sub in sources for opinions and it goes like that.
Sources are like a$$holes, everyone’s got one.
So whenever you read about sources(especially about this topic), just calm down and keep in mind that those sources have nothing to lose(they’re never mentioned by their real name) and can just give information they want, no matter what exactly they’re trying to do with that.
So, what specifically do you wish “backed up”?
Your rationale that it won’t get thrown out. On what basis do you make that statement? If not thrown out - - - exempted ?
It’s going to be interesting to say the least. If Sacramento doesn’t up their bid by at least $50 - $75 million, does the NBA/Stern say we just have one bid from Seattle? Does Stern then turn to Kehriotis/Investors & tell Mastrov/Burkle “thanks for playing?” Does KJ morph into a whale & millions upon millions of dollars start shooting out his blow hole to save the Kings!?
I don’t know?
I think “competing” offer from Sacramento would have to be Burkle pitching in $50, $75, or $100+ million for the team & jump onto the ownership side now that AEG is not going to happen. Then Sacramento gets a sweetheart of an arena deal where $250 to $300 million dollars are put up by the city (& the financials check out with NBA/BOG) & Burkle pitches in for the rest, say, $50 to $100 million extra + any extra costs. That’s how I see it.
Not very likely to happen though seeing as Burkle isn’t even showing his face in Sacramento & some on the city council haven’t even met the guy yet!! Not good… Not in 2 weeks.
Oh & also maybe the MaGoofs get to keep 4% to 8% of the team with no say in the day-to-day operations. That could potentially be a deal the NBA/Stern & the MaGoofs would go for (or be forced to take by Stern’s evil hand).
Kinesu, I do not think the case will be thrown out at this time because the City of Seattle has already spent money on the proposal. I guess Holmes will argue that since there is no finally approved arena, that the lawsuit is premature; one of the counters to that is that City of Seattle money has already been spent on the proposal. Also, There is really to no good reason to throw out the case. One of the I-91 cases would end up in Court, anyway. That is why I think it will not be thrown out.
As for exemption; I couldn’t tell you. It would have consequences, if there were an exemption as the Mayor touted that the proposal was I-91 compliant before the Arena Principles, the Arena Review Panel, and before the MOU was even proposed. I have no idea if there would be an exemption, or not.
my strong inclination is that hansen’s quietude is just what the nba likes, and that worries about sacramento ‘winning’ the ‘pr’ side of things is mostly media types unconsciously expressing gratitude that they have pseudoevents to write about since they don’t know what’s going on behind closed doors, where these decisions get made.
I am not worried about the I-91 lawsuit basically because I worked in law long enough to know that there are some attorneys who are worrisome and some that aren’t. There is no way that the Hansen group doesn’t have some of the best attorneys money can buy. CVD and his groupies aren’t even in the same category as they are.
And maybe Bruski should do some research on how our sports teams have dealt with lawsuits through the years. End of story!
Okay, I am going to see if I can make sense of what I am thinking right now.
Sacramento is going back at least partially with a plan made back in 2010-2012 when no one was knocking on the door to purchase the team. The NBA was working with the Maloofs because there wasn’t anyone else out there except one potential who want to move the team to San Jose. That was the only alternative. In comes the Hansen group whose plan for the team and arena knocks Sacramento’s plan out of the park. Hansen’s plan minimizes anything that Sacramento can propose.
Burkle is only interested in the plan because of his “buy low, sell high” philosophy. Mastrov simply doesn’t have the money to be financially stable in the future unless other big bucks come along (and I think he has to have his own “whale” to even think he can do this). The two together are simply not as strong as the Hansen group.
Perfect Exit strategy for Carmichael Dave. He is removing himself from the spotlight a bit. This serves him two fold. First, if the Kings leave he never has to come back and explain while all his predictions were wrong and it makes the blow a little softer. Two, if the Kings stay he can return and be the hero, saying his efforts during his month break are what saved the Kings. Typical Carmichael Dave MO. Project Zero is a better title to his overall career. The guy is nothing outside his small Sacramento fan base. More people actually can’t stand him in Sac then like him.
Umm legal fees to review the proposal does NOT COUNT. Again I-91 does not apply. how can you determine a ROI using borrowed money? I-91 only applies if the city is investing DIRECTLY again DIRECTLY into project which they are not. They are investing 0 dollars directly into project.
The storm was exempt from I-91 and guess what NOTHING HAPPEN. If City of Seattle feels the need to exempt this THEY WILL.
I’m done arguing over I-91.
Thanks Paul! Great summary of the current situation.
Amen, brother. Thank you. !!
Plus in one of the last council meeting that someone linked the live feed too,Hansen is paying for up to, I believe, 5 million dollars for the cities time on this. So actually the council/city isn’t really spending money on it. Also the legal fees is not part of I-91.
I have no idea why any Sac fans paid attention to the ticket list Hansen put out. I think it’s entirely irrelevant to the BOG’s decision here. Seattle’s history of support is strong; so is Sacramento’s. Comparing two ticket lists is really what this has never been about. So why any Sac fans did so? They’re worry-warts hoping for good news that won’t come until official announcement that the franchise is either A) staying or B) relocating to Seattle.
That’s about all I got.
Who’s arguing over I-91? That is what the lawyers will do in Court.
Hansen would only pay the up to 5 million, if the arena is approved. There is no guaranteed return on the money Seattle has spent so far. If the arena is not approved Hansen does not pay.
No where in I-91 does it say that cash acquired from bonding is exempt from I-91. In fact the MOU says that the cash acquired from bonding is cash. The MOU states that Hansen must be payed in “cash” for the land sale. So, if Seattle acquires the cash through bonding, and the money from bonding is not “cash”; then what would be used to pay Hansen the MOU mandated “cash” for the land sale? Money acquired through bonding is “cash”; and the moment Seattle receives the cash from the bonding, the cash becomes Seattle Public Funds. Hansen would be payed for the land with Seattle Public Funds.
Then there is the diverted Public Fund money from Key Arena; and the diverted Seattle Property Tax money (which is Public Funds).
Then there are the taxes/fees at the proposed arena that would be used to pay for the arena. The taxes/fees at the arena are Public Funds. Were Hansen not exempt from Seattle taxes; and Hansen payed the debt service on the bonds; then the proposal would probably be I-91 compliant.
That is a nutshell look at the reasons the proposal is not I-91 compliant; but it will end up being what a Court decides as to whether or not it is I-91 compliant.
traven,
Dude you don’t GET IT. You never had ever gotten it. The public portion is a loan. Hansen is using the city interest rate via the agreement. He’s getting 147m via bonds and having the city sign off on it to get the that interest rate.
Its a LOAN thus borrowed money meaning I-91 DOES NOT APPLY.
Seattle city council gets that it doesn’t apply hence went onto the spirit of i-91. Its a very badly written law nevermind vague law. I doubt the court will toss the agreement over a badly written vague law.
Mike, brian or Xteve
is this really necessary regarding Tavern. That is partly the reason why i stopped posting on the seattle times comments regarding the arena in general subject. I started posting here to have a civilized conversation to get away from that nonsense from the times comment section. I do not want to see it dragged onto here.
What exactly is uncivil about my post?
The MOU does not outline a loan. The MOU mandates a Seattle bond issue, that is not a loan. The arena proposal proponents are not issuing the bonds, Seattle would. It is simply not a loan. The MOU has no interest rate payed to Seattle for a loan; because it would not be a loan. The brunt of the money for debt service would be payed with Seattle public funds. A loan entails the borrower, in this case the arena proponents, paying back the borrowed money, and debt service. That is not the case with the MOU. It is not a loan.
There is nowhere in I-91 that says that money acquired from bonding does not apply.
Anyway, whether this proposal meets the requirements of I-91 will be up to a Court.
If it doesn’t get tossed it’ll be exempt end of story.