Even after five long years this debate is still brought up from time to time. Even five long years later talking about Jerome James we can’t help but bring up the Luke Ridnour-Earl Watson Debate.
What if I gave them their own time now?
Yes they are on separate teams right now. Luke Ridnour is the starting shooting guard in Minnesota and Earl Watson is a spot starter at point guard for the Utah Jazz. The Timberwolves are not a playoff team and if they don’t draft Ben McLemore from the University of Kansas, David Kahn should be fired right after the draft pick is announced.
This of course means that Ridnour will no longer be a starting shooting guard in Minnesota, but more of a spot player at both guard positions. Still no playoffs for him.
Watson is currently on pace to make the playoffs with the Jazz. He and Jamaal Tinsley have gone back and forth as the starter in Utah for most of the year. It does appear that Jazz will make the playoffs as either the sixth, seventh or eighth seed. I personally think they are going to make the seventh seed and lose in six to OKC.
Ridnour never played in Oklahoma City, he was traded to Milwaukee during the course of the relocation. In the five seasons since Ridnour has left the Pacific Northwest he has played in a total of 335 games (226 started), shot 45% from the field, 36.5% from three, 87.6% from the FT line and has averaged 11.11 points per game. He’s actually been a fine complimentary player in his times away from the Sonics. Ridnour should have never been a starter. His best statistical season came in the 09-10 season where he came off the bench 82 times.
Watson did playing in Oklahoma City and Indiana before finally settling in Utah the past three seasons. Watson has played in 318 games since 2008, starting a total of 89 times. He’s averaged 5.16 points per game, shot 39% from the field, 27.3% from three, 70.6% from the line.
So, does Ridnour finally win? He definitely gets my vote.
Yup, Ridnour.
Would have won doubly so if he’d kept the haircut in the pic. :-)
How the h3ll is luke ridnour a starting shooting guard in the nba…..
Bringing the Pain from Blaine…….Ridnour takes the cake. A good backup PG spot starter in this league. Watson honestly never did a thing for me personally. He’d have some good games but was a huge liability on defense most nights. Not that Ridnour wasnt a def. liability. I just liked Luke’s flow more
A blast from the past!
I feel 6 years younger
I think Luke is a great option to lead a second unit. Not the guy I’d want as my lead PG though. (says the guy living in Minnesota…)
Yeah Minny’s PG is awesome (IMO) and will be very good once he comes into his own. Minny has to upgrade at the 2 guard and if Ridnour is still under contract next season then have him be a backup for Rubio and whomever they get to play the 2. Ive always liked the T-Wolves since I started following the league.
Kevin what do you think about a trade based around Kevin Love and your boy Demarcus Cousins?
We’d then have to draft a center and there isn’t one currently playing college basketball or playing in 11th or 12th grade that is a must have. I’d rather keep Cousins for now and focus on the guard spots and SF. Those are must needs first.
Try and sign Dwight??LOL……at least then you could still have a headcase at the center position. Maybe Bynum if he hits free agency and the price drops because of this seasons debacle
Maybe I am the only one thinking this, but I would bet for Isaiah Thomas as our starting PG. Hopefully, he could improve a lot if we put in the team a veteran PG. I’m not saying he will be the next Chris Paul, but he has got talent and he’s still young, and this team have more serious problems at SF position (Oladipo? Porter?).
What do you think?
The last Sonics game I ever attended in person was when we eliminated the Kings in the ’05 playoffs. I remember that Ridnour made a really fantastic play on a loose ball at mid-court. I don’t even remember exactly what happened, but he grabbed the ball and did some crazy flip to Ray (I think) that blew my mind.
A bit of a twist and a great pass to Rashard Lewis.
This? http://youtu.be/yM9Gp0aE2LM
Found it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM9Gp0aE2LM
This one?
that’s the one!
so good.
Thomas is a left handed Nate Robinson and that’s about his ceiling. This years draft is stacked with great point guards. Next years draft is stacked with wing players. Can’t miss out on a great point for a so so player like Olapido or Otto.
There’s only one must have, franchise changing guy his year and its Ben McLemore.
mateen cleaves all the way. haha.
Is a stud point guard really THAT important? Looking at teams that have won titles recently, you don’t see the teams with all world point guards. You see talent on the wings and talent at the 4 or 5. I just don’t see the necessity for star power at the point as opposed to star power at any of the other 4 positions.
I honestly feel this years draft is going to be one of the worst ten of all time. Next year… Next year has top three all time potential.
Yeah, but they had competent point guards. The isn’t one on the kings roster now. All shoot first and have to look up what defense is in the dictionary and still don’t understand the word.
Klay Thompson with the go-ahead bucket. Sac 83, GS 85. 7.5 seconds left.
I also think whoever drafts Nerlens Noel is going to be very, very, very sorry.
Isaiah Thomas not on the floor during crunch time.
and it was against SAC too!
Me too! Nice wizardry there, Kevin!
I remember that.. twas totally sick!
If I had to go with a pick now, it would be Ridnour over Watson. Where is Sherman Alexie when you need him for a good argument?! Come on out of the woodwork for us, Sherman!
So who would be your man, Smart? Or move down to pick Burke? I’m not following NCAA actually, so I haven’t a clear opinion about that.
He’ll be better than Len or any terapin.
Yes! I know exactly what play you are talking about, so sweet. As for the debate, it’s always been Ridnour for me.
props to the international Sonics fans here! Just followed u on twitter, compadre.
Luuuke! I am your father!
Thanks bro, I gave you the follow back! There are a lot of Sonics fans here in Spain, I’m really proud for represent them!
Ouch. I don’t think anyone on the Terps roster should be in the NBA in any form.
Well, I know this is now 7 or 8 hours old, but here’s an article on the new arena design and preliminary approval:
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2020500614_arenadesignxml.html
Move down and get a second first round pick in 2014. Also figure out a way to get a third first round pick. Haha
“Members of the Downtown Design Review Board continued to ask questions about how the arena would interact with the Sodo neighborhood and whether the transparent wall that extends along First Avenue South and encloses the stairway and plaza was necessary.
“You’re making a great plaza but hiding it from the street,” said Gundula Proksch, an architect on the review board. She noted that even a transparent wall could block views of Puget Sound and the Olympic Mountains.
Architects for Hansen said they wanted to create a space that would allow for noise and activity in the plaza while still shielding neighbors on First Avenue South.”
I say screw the neighbors, let’s make some noise AND have the benefit of great views of Puget Sound and the Olympics. Safeco pulled it off, no?
Terrence ross was smart to back out of his verbal.haha im just giving you ahard time man.
Doesn’t this “transparent wall that could block views” sound like a line from a Monty Python skit? ;)
Just for the record I get what she’s saying but its worded in a funny way.
Worse than the 2000 draft? That’s the gold standard for horrible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_NBA_Draft
Kevin Love is an unequivocal superstar in this league. He is a franchise player. You’re saying you wouldn’t trade an unproven, mentally unstable, 42%-shooting nutjob for Kevin Love? And you premise that conclusion on the lack of up-and-coming centers in the high school ranks? Unreal.
I feel like Myk and I are stranded together on an island of former Sonics fans who still follow NBA basketball in a meaningful way.
PS - yes that was a double-quote. The comment was just that unfathomable.
Slightly better. At least 2000 had Desmond Mason. Haha
I used to say Earl because I thought he had a higher upside but he did always disappoint more. Luke has had a better career - although not good - career. With the benefit of hindsight, I’m in the Luke camp now.
Definitely a crappy year to have a high pick but I think a few of the players have high upsides. I’m not a fan of Marcus Smart. Isn’t he kind of a smaller Tyreke with a poorer offensive game? Shabazz is being rapped for holes in his game but I from what I’ve seen I think he could develop. I’m not down on Nerlen but think he should rehab, go back to school and develop for at least a year. I like Willie Caulie-McCulken or whatever his other name is. The raw Kentucky center. I don’t know if he’ll enter this year’s draft but his stock could rise.
Of course I’d trade for Love, but need some one to play next to him. Plus I don’t think David Khan is that dumb.
Well I take that back. He thought Johnny Flynn was better than Stephen Curry and gave darko a $20M contract.
Cauley-Stein is an athletic freak, but needs one more year of school. Most the Kentucky kids would be better off staying one more year. I think Harrow comes out for sure. Not sure he’s ever a starter on a top tier team.
Not only did he think that but he also drafted both Flynn and Rubio in the same draft. And Ty Lawson!
And I can tell you that as of this very moment, Johnny Flynn is playing in the Australian League, and is not exactly the league MVP. All while Steph Curry drops 54 on the Knicks… yeah, that one worked out well. :-)
It was, I agree. I can’t think of a solid path to make this roster great.
You can paint over a crap covered canvas, no matter the work of art you create, the base is still crap.
I forgot they drafted Lawson!
He also took Wes Johnson and his broken jumper with a top five pick.
I’m with you. The Kings roster is a GM’s worst nightmare. Your only real hope is that DMC gets his act together or your strike gold in the 2014 lottery. Or you have an obscenely wealthy ownership group willing to dip into the luxury tax and a Pres/GM like Phil Jackson who can recruit elite free agents in 2015/16.
BTW I think the Kings/Sonics are sneakily well-positioned to get a bargain on Tyreke Evans this offseason. His character/ballhogging/inconsistency issues might be sufficiently off-putting to allow the Kings/Sonics to match an RFA offer somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 yrs/$36 million. That’s great value for a versatile swingman who still has enormous upside. More realistically, though, he’ll get offered something in the 4yrs/$46 range…at which point you might as well just flip a coin.
Frodo vs Monchichi!
http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2013/03/06/hang-time-podcast-episode-107-featuring-sam-big-smooth-perkins/?cid=nba_12_twitter_L
Looking at the potential free agents, not sure there is a better option out there.
Luke wins of course….
So lets hope this Wiggins kid grows out of the stare downs
http://smokingsection.uproxx.com/TSS/2013/02/video-andrew-wiggins-dunk-and-stare
Unless he wants.be.be.GP the 2nd?
Yeah I am befuddled on Tyreke because there isnt anyone better and if you can get him to re-sign at a respectable contract you may be able to flip him in the future if you can get a suitable replacement. The nice thing about Evans is that he can play multiple positions if needed. Evans is as much as enigma but for different reasons as Cousins. You really have to wonder what a change of scenery and some continuity with solid coaching may do for them.
Cousins needs some accountability in his basketball life. For a young man like him the way this saga is like a worst case scenario for him. He needs a mentor and a coach that demands the respect of his players. If you could harness that emotion he has to make the right decisions he could be a helluva player.
Honestly holding on to him for now and Evans (at the right price) may be the best thing going forward. After those two the Kings really dont have a player that should be a starter. I also think Evans may be better suited to playing a lot of minutes in the 6th man role on a really good basketball team. Now if he wasnt such a ball hog and focused on defense then he is a starter IMO.
So many things that need to be rectified with that team that I wouldtnt know where to start. Gotta start with a floor general that will lead the team and hold others accountable.
You guys think that Chris Hansen would have the gaul if the Phil Jackson rumors are false that we could make a play on Sam Presti? I know it would be darn near impossible because of the team he has in OKC BUT he may be intrigued by being G.M. of a team that doesnt have to trade a James Harden because of financial restrictions and limitations of a smaller market. Especially if we hired RC Buford as Team President since Im pretty sure they know eachother well.
If Reke is the best option “out there”, you S&T him. You have too many guys playing his position, you can pick up a foundation piece or future draft picks for him.
given that the Kings have operated just over the salary floor (and Salmons is still amnesty eligible), you should have near max money to play with in free agency. Thornton makes Evans expendable for a good piece.
Ok Just saw the Jamal Crawford between the leg alley-oop to Blake Griffin. That was sick. Oh I seriously want the Sonics back NOW DAMMIT!!!!!. Just vote to approve already BoG!!!!! People say its just a month and a half away. Oh yeah?! How bout we have been waiting for 5 stinkin years!!!!!
Oh how sweet it will be when we take our first ride on the magic carpet……..
Hey Kevin. Is it possible to put a next thread button at the bottom of the page? I just got a new phone and am reading the site on it more than my old phone. And its a bit of a pain when catching up on multiple long threads to have to scroll all the way to the top to click next. Sounds trivial. But my browser scrolls rather slow.
Yes, it’s something I’m looking into now.
This tweet from Scott Howard Cooper on Cousins isn’t a good sign…
“Scott Howard-Cooper @SHowardCooper
Cousins was terrible. Twenty minutes, 2-10 FG (after 1-12 night before vs. Denver), 4 rebounds, three fouls. Looked completely disengaged.”
From what I’ve read, he goes through bouts where he seems disengaged, he’s terrible on defense (the whole team is), he’s constantly complaining to the refs, spends way too much time on the perimeter on offense and his body language sucks.
How can a guy so big, so talented shoot only 44% from the field? He should easily be 60%.
Hopefully some veteran guidance can help him out, but I think his issues are way beyond having someone be a mentor to him.
Not to mention he has a short fuse. He was yelling at the Denver fans during the game. If you can’t handle fans yelling at you (maybe with the exception of racist/prejudiced comments) then you really shouldn’t be playing spectator sports. It doesn’t help that from all indications Keith Smart is a terrible coach and there is absolutely no leadership in the organization. It might get rectified but at some point you have to stop blaming things on lack of guidance and just call a spade a spade.
Then there’s the time he got into an argument with Spurs Color Commentator Sean Elliot, he got into an argument with Keith Smart at halftime of a game and he got into an argument with Paul Westphal…………….
I live in Minnesota and have witnessed Kahn’s ineptitude first hand (although some recent moves have been better). But I doubt the Wolves would do a deal where they ended up with Cousins because they tend not to acquire jerks and head cases. That’s why they took Wes Johnson over Cousins in the draft. Whether its marketing or philosophy or what but it’s what they do. Of course when they had jerks and head cases like Garnett, Marbury, and Sprewell, they actually won a lot of games.
Didn’t they draft so many points because they weren’t sure if Rubio would actually sign with them? I think I remember that being the case.
I like Antonio Daniels better than either of ‘em, too bad he wanted more than the Sonics were willing to give :(
that’s why the BoG don’t want expansion
I’v read that the Wizards are down on John Wall. They may be open to dealing him. Swaping Wall for a signed & traded Tyreke Evans may make sense. Pairing Wall with Cousins could invigorate both players.
I’d rather not have a guy who shot 7% (not a typo) from 3 last year. He’s an exciting, athletic player, but I don’t see him leading a team anywhere.
Wall’s going to be working with Gary Payton over the summer. Will be interesting how much he can learn from the Glove.
Gary was asked which player reminds him the most of himself and he said that it is John Wall.
The wizards also have a winning record since wall returned from injury so I don’t think they will be looking to shop him around
I thought he said Rondo?
Kahn tends to fall for the late risers on the draft board and is sucked in by flashes in the pan like Flynn, Wes Johnson, arguably Derrick Williams. He’s getting good international advice on guys like Pekovic and Shved.
He said Rondo on the defensive end and Deron Williams on the offensive end, but as an overall package (offense and defense) it was Wall.
McHale actually drafted Pekovic. Shved has a chance to be pretty good.
Don’t forget about Derrick Williams. If only Kahn had drafted Evan Turner, his attempt to snatch every overachieving prospect of the last four years would be complete. You just know he’s going to fall for Victor Oladipo, too.
As for how to make the Sonics roster better, I think the answer is simple. We have to draft well with what are sure to be top-5ish picks the next couple of years. Either we get lucky and land a real game changer type, or we collect assets to be used in a trade to bring a guy like that in.
I hope whoever is going to be the GM is already doing his homework on this year’s class. The draft is full of potential land mines this year, and it may be about a 50/50 chance that a team in the top ten ends up with a dud.
That’s something I don’t understand at all.
You don’t have to draft a center because you trade Cousins. That current team has to be blown up and built from scratch.
So you’re going for a full rebuild and shoot for a top 2 pick in next years draft.
If you do trade Cousins, then you either draft a guy in the 2nd round(or maybe add a first for a guy like Cauley-Stein etc.) or sign a solid big during free agency. I’d just go for option #2, as you have to spend a certain amount of $ thanks to the new CBA.
And there’s always a Samuel Dalembert out there happily signing that one year $5 mil contract.
Or you could just play smaller and a more fast paced style, which would certainly help entertain and keep you in games, as you’re going to be less talented on most nights.
Also, there are some options in the late first or 2nd round of each years draft where you can find a solid rebounding big that can help you there.
BTW: Cousins is the big question mark and the guy you’ve got to decide on this summer.
You either keep him, extend him and hand him the keys to your franchise or you’re trying to trade him with his value still being pretty high.
There’s no in between on this part, as he’s in his third season and will ask for a contract extension this year.
A few things:
- I don’t see why Cousins and Love couldn’t play on the same team together.
- Love has put up some great numbers, but want to see him win a few games before I decide he is truly a superstar/franchise changing player. I think he’d be best suited as a second banana where the superstar is a high volum scorer (for example I think Love would be great with Kevin Durant or Kobe)
- Cousins has had a difficult March. But, he is only a “Junior” in college. His January and February was 18ppg, 10rpg, 3.5apg and 50% shooting. That is superstar production for a Center. I fully understand that Cousins could very easily be a bust, but he is a guy that you are almost as likley to regret giving up on too soon as well.
- Finally, a great guy to put next to Cousins would probably be a healthy Nerlens Noel…
I honestly think the best thing you can do is sign and trade Evans, if someone’s interested and willing to give up a first round pick and maybe a solid guy.
For instance, the Mavs(who always come up short in free agency) could be a team willing to give you their 2014 first rounder and maybe one of their so so guys.
Evans, to me, is a guy that’s just not going to help you win consistantly IMO
- The Sonics not signing Daniels was actually one of their smart moves. No way the guy was worth the full MLE and WAS immediately regretted that contract
I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment. Trading a guy like Cousins for Love is an absolute no brainer move, if it were actually available. Our lack of depth at the league’s most talent shallow position is hardly a good enough reason not to pull the trigger, especially when you start to consider that the center you’re trading hasn’t proven much of anything other than that he can throw a hissy fit with the best of them.
- The BOG didn’t want expansion because they like 30 large pieces of pie better than 31 slightly smaller pieces of pie. People claim that the league can’t sustain extra teams from a talent situation and that is just not true. The league is as talented as ever before.
Cousins contract doesn’t need to be extended until 2015/16. And he is putting up a rought 20 PER over the previous two seasons. Or, for you traditional stat people 17.5 and 10.5 per game. Andrew Bynum had worse per 36 minutes and is still considered a max contract guy…
Cousins has some issues (hope the first thing Hansen would do if they got a team would bring in a strong coach)…but to act as if he is some sort of bust or is “losing value” around the league is laughable. Plenty of teams would love to trade for the guy.
To give an example of Cousins’ value…Bill Simmons was relatively sure he’d consider a Cousins for Rondo trade (adding other bits of salary to make things even)
If you can get a good deal for Cousins, Thompson can slide over to the 5- given his skill set, I’d say that might benefit him.
I would swap Cousins for Kevin Love in a heartbeat. Would Kahn do it? He already has Pekovic in the middle, and he’s a brute force.
Cousins and Evans have enough tantalizing potential that one wants to see what they can do in a stable, well run situation with good coaching. The problem is that both have reached a stage with their contract situations where franchise altering decisions must be made. I would be reluctant to tie up big money in these guys, based on the past three years of their performances. Sonics 2.0 are better off starting with a fresh slate, cap space and wise drafting. With our new ownership group, we can and will attract top shelf free agents, unlike before. I would use an analytics based approach to player decisions, like Sam Presti does.
Why do people keep saying Cousins is at some weird point in his contract? He has at least two more years of guaranteed team control.
Why would they trade Kevin Love for Cousins? Minnesota would never do that. And how are you going to make the salaries match up? Are you saying Minn would do a sign and trade in 14/15? Because max money player for rookie deal isnt going to work…….ever.
Cousins is the only tradeable asset they have right now. They have to keep him for now.
I could be wrong but next year is the year that the team can sign him to an extionsion or risk him going to RFA like Tyreke Evens.
Or you can decide to trade him to a team who wants to extend him and get assets similar to what happened with James Harden
Pretty sure there is a team option for the next year. I think his true RFA year is 2015/16
Why on hoopshype does Evans not have a team option for 13/14? Same for Cousins in 14/15? I think they have it wrong
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/sacramento.htm
This is what I found - “For first-round draft picks, restricted free agency is only allowed after a team exercises its option for a fourth year, and the team makes a Qualifying Offer at the Rookie-scale amount after the fourth year is completed”
Then per Hoopsworld, his qualifying offer year would be 2014/2015
http://www.hoopsworld.com/sacramento-kings-team-salary
@ChrisDaniels5: Two reports out of Sacramento this morning: @largesteve quotes CM “We don’t have a deal right now.” http://t.co/M2jZBAFdJK #NBAKings
@ChrisDaniels5: Although.. @nickmonacelli in #Sacramento reports Arena plan should be unveiled March 21st. http://t.co/HaKWVhTKIE #NBAKings
And so another day goes by….
True. I got confused when I didnt see his team option year. But obviously they have already exercised it.
Was was also mention on twitter and not sure how true this is or not but
Bellingham Insider @Bham_Insider
@NW_Basketball @bmaynews10 @news10_ca sac is investing $100,000,000.00 less in proposed arena than #SeattleArena #HUGEdifference
if i have read that right public subsidy of 150m?
So 5 days later they have vote? That’s just not right.
I was actually surprised how much of a debate this was back when they played for Seattle. Luke was clearly the better point guard!
Yes it does! haha!!
No, the last arena was valued at $390 million whereas ours is $490. That is my take at least. The Sac contribution will be $200-250 million from what I have been seeing (if they can really get that much from the new parking structure that will take place)…that value also takes away the public subsidy nonsense that Bruski has been touting as a Sac advantage.
Hey all. Long time reader, first time poster. I still would probably put Earl ahead of LR just because of defensive issues (Watson isn’t exactly the greatest defender in the world but Rid is terrrrrrrrrrrible), but I agree that it’s closer now than it was back in the day. Admittedly, too, I haven’t been able to watch much basketball since the Supes left because I’ll find myself getting into a particular game and thinking “oh yeah, I remember liking this sport a lot” and then some kind of Thunder-related news comes on and I change the channel.
To the overall poor defensive performance by the Kings, I think a lot of that is just that they’re not a good team and don’t put in the effort it would take to win 35 games instead of 25. I’m not saying everyone on the team will suddenly become a good defender - Isaiah Thomas in particular looks like a tweener to me who is as much a liability on the defensive end as he creates mismatches on the offensive end - but I don’t think it’s necessarily terrible.
What the team needs more than anything else is a defensive-minded coach who can instill confidence in his players. I don’t know that bringing in an intense disciplinarian is necessarily going to work on Cousins, unfortunately. While I agree that might have had an effect as he was a young player, he is an NBA vet now and any attempt to “rein him in” so to speak is as likely to cause him to make demands of his own as it is to help. Also, that crap doesn’t work at all unless you’re already winning games. Catch-22, I know.
What I’d really like to see is a return of Mac-10. Portland can’t be that enamored with him anymore, can they? Given that George Karl is probably never, ever going to leave Denver, this is our next best link to the old Sonics (well, Lenny Wilkens, but I think he’s slightly too old to coach). I also really like what Nate was doing with the rotations in 2004-5 and would like to see if he can repeat that (granted that the second he left, Bobby Weiss tried to do the same thing and immediately everyone jumped ship).
Chris Daniels@ChrisDaniels5
I’m looking forward to sitting down in-studio FOR A FULL HOUR from 1-2p today w/my friend @IanKJR on @SportsRadioKJR to talk #NBASeattle
I think it was 5 days before the council meets. Some rule they have to present this info 5 days prior for public viewing. I think they said the vote would be like 2 weeks after, but maybe that was the old timeline. Getting these things mixed up now. Either way about 2 or 3 weeks to actually vet the “deal” doesn’t seem like much (although I think the term sheet is saying these are the negotiating points that they want to present to the BOG). Not my city I guess.
Evans will be an RFA this summer, Cousins will be an RFA in the summer of 2014. Going to be extremely interesting to see what price the open market sets for these guys. Summer of 2013 has a pretty underwhelming FA class, and a lot of teams with money to burn, so you could conceivably see Evans get a near-max offer. I’d be extremely reluctant to match anything in the Lawson/Curry/DeRozan range, which is probably what he’ll be offered.
i thought i read vote was on the 26th.
gotcha.
Maybe, the report changed from April 2 to March 21, so I really don’t know when the vote is. Either way it is certainly rushing, but look for it to be near identical to the last proposal and probably have few specifics other than the general numbers from each party.
Voting on this close to the BOG is cutting it close anyways.
Bleh hit the wrong quote button meant to quote this.
KJ and Sac are going to give them the bare minimum they can get away with, both in the offer and the arena proposal. There’s not enough time to get a fleshed out plan.
Lesser offer, lesser building, lesser market. Think big.
BTW any talk in the media about the city loan and how the Mastrov group would not have to pay it appears to be just be based on assumptions and ignorance. Scott Howard Cooper was tweeting about the idea as if it were the case, I pointed him towards the Sac City Council affirming that retiring that loan was a key principle of any arena plan and he thanked me for the clarification.
Yep, especially after hearing he will meeting owners earlier as well to explain the “bid”.
“As you will see, pages 1 through 5 is our detailed offer for the Sacramento Kings, pages 6-7 detail the bullet points of our arena plan, and pages 8-252 are our excuses for your review. Thank you, gentlemen.”
Looks like the city (Sacramento) rightfully wants to put up as little as possible now that the big investors are coming to the rescue… While the big investors are looking for a sweet deal from the city in an arena deal, plus pick up the Kings at a discount.
This is like hearing the tires skidding and waiting for the crash.
Haha thanks “pink” ;)
Chris Daniels @ChrisDaniels5
RT @Rob_McAllister: KJohnson on Seattle Mayor: “He tried to take our police chief a few years ago and now the Kings- he’s about to be 0-2.”
Not to be a jerk but KJ is starting to reach jackass levels here and has pretty much lost any respect I would have given him.
Really? Shawn Kemp is only 6th best in NBA history?
“Twenty-five dunkers who rocked the world”
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nba/news/20130307/nba-power-dunkers/?xid=si_topstories#all
Also looks like the city will be leasing the land rather than buying it to fit the “city owned” angle they are going for. And they don’t know how many years. I don’t know how that would qualify as city owned rather than city financed, but we will see.
This is bullshit. I am so tired of Sacramento having free effing reign on public statements. I realize they sound desperate and pathetic but I am still taking the bait. I want to hit back!
If public subsidy is so important to the decision. What prevents the city of Seattle from increasing their percentage? You would think that money could change since it is not part of the NBA team purchase requirement.
I am coming into this late in the game. Searchable archives would be cool.
i under
seriously, i know kj is passionate but why the hell is he talking smack to mcginn/seattle? i’d like to think mayors are above that. i’ve respected johnson throughout this process but this really makes him sound like a punk.
Wow, a police chief victory? What an epic battle that must have been! Seriously, KJ should focus on fighting for his own city without trashing ours.
Cousins will be eligible for an extension this summer and he’ll be a restricted free agent next summer.
If you do not extend or trade him this summer, you’ll diminish his trade value starting next season.
Teams will not give you a high pick(they certainly would this summer) or great value overall, as they’d rather wait for him to become a RFA and bid for him.
Also, if you let him become a RFA, you’ll certainly have to match a max contract for four years, as some team will offer him that given his talent and production so far.
That’s why this summer’s the time to decide what to do with him, to either keep him longterm or get the best possible package in return.
Anyone remember this? I wish Payton would start using his gift to put KJ in his place… Again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF-dNkPDTTA
I hope our mayor does the same thing our ownership group does, stay silent, stay confident, and not stoop to that level.
KJ looks petty and desperate.
I agree I’ve lost any respect I had for KJ
I agree
He’s under contract till next summer.
Then he’d have to be OK signing a qualifying offer and becoming an unrestricted free agent.
Given the power of agents these days and his talent, there’s next to no chance of him becoming an UFA before his first big contract(the one he’ll sign this or next summer) is up.
What a jackass. Can’t wait for his first presser after they leave.
I agree. Maybe it’s all he has. Sad really.
I agree
Who cares? It doesn’t matter and if they look foolish it is their loss. Like I hav ebeen saying before if you can’t take the name calling maybe it is best to stay away for a while until things are settled.
They could say “LOL Seattle has teh poopsmelz” and I would care less, we are winning and will more likely than not get the prize. Thin skins will only get bruised as this continues to gain momentum.
It is not important to the decision. That has just been a Sac talking point since they don’t really have that many things they could argue as more favorable than Seattle (just from the actual components of the sale and arena proposals). There is no way the city ups its portion as there is an agreed upon structure in the MOU based on an NBA team or an NBA and NHL team. Additionally it would never fly in Seattle to add more to the public portion.
I don’t mind being called whatever Sac will call us, and frankly I don’t really care as I will not feel one bit of guilt or sorrow when we move the team to Seattle. I just think it is a d*ck move for a mayor to say things about another mayor when he isn’t even involved in the whole thing other than forming the MOU and doing city obligations.
He’s playing to his base that is all. It’s all vanity. He knows that their offer is lacking in every way so he’s got to spin things including taking shots at Seattle to keep hope alive down there.
Plus he loves this stuff. He loves the attention. He’s back in Desert Princess mode. Like when he did his staged take off his coat routine at his State of the City address right before he announced Mastrov / Burkle.
Qualifying offer year would be his RFA year.
Tim Booth @ByTimBooth
Hmmm … Just heard Chris Hansen is among a group of officials touring KeyArena this AM before PAC-12 women’s tourney. #nbaseattle
To Mitch’s (KJR) point about the significantly lesser offer, his point about nothing being said about the financial contribution is significant. I think that if it was close to Hansen’s PSA 341 million then he would be bragging up a storm about it. Yet we hear nothing. That in of itself is enough to make you wonder how low it is since he has had a press conference and a PR blitz about everything else.
I think KJ wants a chance to explain himself before the BoG before the numbers are heard. I think they will be leaked soon but we will see. Im really suprised we havent heard what it is as of yet.
Sorry I have no clue what happened with the quotes up there…..
^^^^THIS
Thanks for the reply
KJ apparently thinks he’s still on a bball court and he’s just talking smack to the opponent. Not classy for a city leader, not at all
We dont needs more money from the city. Obviously Chris and Steve are ready to spend crzy money on this investment. Cause this isnt strictly business for them. The same cant be said for Burkle and Mastrov
@sofa, it’s not that name calling bothers me, i just can’t believe the name calling is coming from the mayor. didn’t think he’d publicly hold grudges and talk smack.
I don’t think sac is really giving NBA enough time to vet their arena plan.
As a public official representing Sacramento as mayor he should know better than to be talking smack and grudges like that to another city.
I have never really held KJ in very high regard. If you look into his past he was twice accused of child abuse or some similar type of bad things involving minors. Ithink he is a creep. McGinn isn’t a perfect mayor(understatement), but he isn’t creepy like that. Although he has that bicycle fetish.
If public subsidy amount really mattered, the Kings would have stayed in Kansas City, where they were offered a generous lease deal. Instead they relocated to Sacramento and built an arena without any public money.
I understand crazy money. I want some. I just see the NBA’s history wanting equal commitments from all involved. Not to step on your foot, but Seattle knew what Sacramento brought to the table and I am surprised it wasn’t at least matched at least on the low end. (Sacramento’s publicly acknowledged 200 million in 2011).
Note: this doesn’t include a two team commitment and is based on arena cost vs. percentage subsidized.
Because I think it is blown out of proportion. Just look at a lot of the new buildings in the NBA-no or little subsidies.
Failing to match sounds like a much bigger problem on the Sacramento side of things right now.
Thing is, our market makes it worth it for private investors to invest heavily without relying on public subsidy, Sacramento is a far cry from that, unfortunately for that city.
I hope this is the trend. I hope the efforts of the good people of Seattle in 2008 had in a karma kind of way created this trend. Good for us little people at least in the present.
I tried to post from my phone and failed miserably.
I have never had a high opinion of KJ. If you look into his past he has been accused of some type of assault/ abuse stuff by a minor who was living in his home. This guy is not squeaky clean, I think he is creepy. McGinn may not be perfect(understatement), but he is not a creep and doesn’t have that kind of stuff in his past.
You can google “Kevin Johnson accused of”, or look at his wikipedia page, they have links to the newspaper articles. Dude is creepy…
I agree. Money in hand is greater.
I however love an underdog. It’s my burden.
I’ve been questioning myself on something lately and wanted to pose it to the group here. There are some hypothetical built into it, so I guess you’d have to buy into those to answer it.
The NBA decides it is best to grant one city an expansion. It is clear that the BOG will vote for the Seattle sale to go through so they offer the choice to the Hansen/Ballmer group. The Kings are yours, along with relocation for the 2013-2014 season or, with your permission, we will vote down the sale and try and force the Maloofs to accept the Sacremento plan. Hansen/Ballmer would get an expansion team in 2015-2016. Would you be willing to wait until 2015-2016 to have a NBA team, clean and clear from any history and taking it from a city, or would you take the team from Sacramento and allow them to have the expansion club in 2015-2016? I hear people say Seattle would rather have expansion, but if it means waiting a couple more years, can you still say that??
There’s the E word again.
You look at the company he is with there and how short his peak dunking career was and I say it’s a pretty good placement.
Two steps forward, one step back. bkup, the E word has been discussed here to no end. For all we know, it isn’t an option.
Anyone here follow Mitch Levy? He was supposed to follow up yesterday on “leaks” about the $sac offer. Didn’t hear anything since though.
No NBA expansion in foreseeable future according to Stern.
In Stern talk, who knows what the scientists are brewing up at the NBA laboratory.
Just to be clear, I don’t believe the NBA will expand. I use to think I’d rather have an expansion team, but as we get closer to having a team next season, I don’t know if I can really say that anymore. I just want my Supersonics, in Seattle, now. So I wont feed the BS line to Sacramento fans that I would rather take expansion. I want your team, now, cause that means basketball in Seattle, next season.
To be fair, public figures sometimes get accused of weird crap. Do we need for KJ to be creepy in order to dislike him at this point? I’d say not.
Furthermore, the Mastrov offer is apparently quite a bit lower than Hansen’s PSA for $341M..how could the league convince the Maloofs to go with a lower offer? Maloofs just gave away some of their players to get an extra couple million at the trading deadline..they are desperate. I just don’t see this as even bein hypothetical.
Expansion = less profits for current owners.
Its not happening anytime soon. They are in year one of the new CBA
If I am Sacramento it would concern me if one of my biggest arguments for the team staying is “look my government will give my team more money for a building”…
Never liked kj as a player. Whiney player and sore loser and same thing as mayor. Whiney and a sore loser. I would personally like to thank him however for taking the very small amount of guilt i did have about making the kings my sonics again. Thanks kj
I trust stern as far as I can throw him. And I’m a scrawny guy, not very strong. I doubt I could lift very high. Besides, the forseeable future doesn’t include an NBA with Stern.
No, too long to wait. After having “5 years” and “2013″ dangled in our face all these years and months anything less than tipoff 2013 is a loss to me. My newly rebuilt enthusiasm would drop like a rock by 2015.
David Stern is Dr. Vague :o
+1
Bingo! Some NBA arenas are built with huge subsidies and others are built promarily with private money. It all depends on what the owner wants. The owner (Maloofs) want to sell to Hansen. Hansen wants to relocate to Seattle and significantly help build an arena.
Just like how Schultz wanted $200 million subsidy towards a $218 million renovation of Key Arena, Bennett wanted $500 million subsidy towards a new arena in Renton (although only $100 million for a renovation to the Ford Center in okc) and Ballmer wanted $150 million subsidy for a $300 million renovation of Key Arena (Bennett owned the team though so this didn’t matter). Schultz was the idiot who tried once, poorly, for a subsidy then acted like a bitch and sold to Bennett. It’s probably pretty similar to what the Maloofs are doing to Sacramento. Bottom line, there is no guideline for the NBA in this matter, it’s whatever the owners want.
Not to mention expansion teams have less chance of winning any time soon than even the terribly managed Kings.
H’mmm are you suggesting as little as 1 year for expansion. I’m going back to bed to dream :)
Why didn’t Sacramento wait for expansion rather than snatch the Kings from Kansas City? The league added four new teams just a few years later.
But yes, if it meant the Kings stayed in Sacramento and Seattle got back in the NBA the clean way, I’d be willing to wait a few more years. But it seems very unlikely.
Stern is retiring in 2014..
KJ is a poster child as to why you don’t elect celebrities to government offices without any prior experience. Otherwise you get leaders ancient Rome-style entertain the masses to distract from problem policies (KJ) or they are flat batshit crazy (Ventura).
Chris Daniels @ChrisDaniels5
@gusseattle @blakekrek It’s $145 for one team, $200 for two teams.
THis was in response to seattle’s loan amount for the new arena (someone said 120 for NBA, 80 for NHL)
Did this change somewhere along the line?
I always thought it was 120M NBA, 200M for both?
Here’s another thing I was just thinking about. Beyond the merits of the deal itself, which we all agree are already in our favor, what aftermath do you suppose the NBA wants on its hands? Stern has made it clear that one city will be disapointed. So does the NBA want to start the clock ticking on a the Sacramento fanbase and city desperate to replace a team that they just lost? Or continue the clock on Seattle, already wallowing in the midst of a long five-year wait, and a jilted investor group wondering what more they would need to do in purusing another team? When a sales agreement with an existing ownership group and a $30M deposit is not enough, what would be?
Yes, during the negotiations with the city council. I’d have to look it up to remember exactly what happened, but it changed from what Chris initially proposed to what the Council revised and approved. I’ll look it up cause I somehow remember the county contributing less than originally proposed due to the overpass fund. There was something there along those lines.
I agree, get him on his present merits if you must.
In a strange way you give KJ power by implying that he is untouchable. If guilty of those old accusations, I will be the first one to throw stones.
sooty, Sac fans. I wish what you were doing in Sac was enough to keep the team. I wish caring is all it takes. It doesn’t matter though. Sac has great fans but then again so did Charlotte and Seattle, hell maybe even Vancouver if they were given a better shot. It’s been a tremendous effort on Sac’s part and if they do some how pull off the miracle of keeping the team then congrats. I just don’t see how it is possible though. History favors Seattle taking the team and the present situation favors Seattle taking the team. We as fans are pretty much helpless. Seattle was screwed by horrible owners in Schultz and Bennett and now Sacramento is too. Seattle just happens to be in the better side of the current situation. I appreciate your trying to be civil here (regardless of what you post in Sac blogs) because we are all fans with no control.
No way do I want to wait 2 more years. I am not getting any younger.
Apparently Stern is not the Lone Ranger when it comes to saying nay to expansion- his horse is saying it louder.
No way, I take him for what he has done before as well as now. Just because people like the way he advocates for the kings in Sac doesn’t make him any less of a dirtball for what he has done in the past. People who are in the public eye do get accused of things wrongly at times, but not usually 3 separate times.
I thought the extra 25M was to “seed” the infrastructure improvement account.
I appreciate your sentiment. I got involved here to learn from experience. I truly believe Sacramento still has a great chance, however as in real life I need to prepare for death. (getting philosophical) When I read the Sac sites it is all one viewpoint and I want more than to look through one eye. I want the best picture possible, it is therapy.
As it has been said many of times, fans are not the enemy, we are the pawns.
Thank you Seattle for your tolerance
For your viewing pleasure:
http://www.king5.com/news/arena/Hansen-Seattle-Council-reach-deal-on-financing-new-sports-arena-169272086.html
Thats what I thought.
Chris Daniels on KJR right now.
I’ve posted a link to a KING 5 news story explaining how and why it changed…it is currently in moderation, but just search google for hansen seattle council MOU and click on the september article from king 5 when deal was announced between council and hansen
We believed we had a great chance 5 years ago too. We had a very winnable lawsuit in play. We had a arena proposal backed by one of the richest guys in the country. We had 41 years of history. We all had a love for our team that jaded our perspective. “No way they are leaving” - Every Sonics fan
But facts are facts. Both teams are being sold to out of town owners who want to move. Its not really all that different. In fact its eerily similar in some situations.
The deck is pretty stacked at this point. Just be mentally prepared for the worst…….because from our perspective its coming.
I missed it. What did Daniels have to say?
I get it. I’m here with an open mind not to change your mind. It truly is a great time to be a Sonics fan.
I gotta say it, “just not the Kings”. It’s in my contract : )
New thread is up.
anyone else have trouble getting KJR to buffer and play on Iheart app for Iphone??
I go to other stations on the app on the buffer almost instantly. KJR is very very spotty.
The=they
the=they
Same trouble here.
No Mr Mayor, It is Chris Hansen and Steve Ballmer who wrote the Magoofballs the #30 million check. As far as the police chief. You should take that as a compliment to your fine city. Police aren’t teams. They come and go. EVERY city has lost SEVERAL of them and replace them ALL the time. Has Sacramento never had someone relocate from Seattle?? Where is the thanks for Doug Christie’s services??
Maybe their police chief thrives on challenges, and realized that Sacramento was a bigger one than Seattle could ever be.
I get the feeling that’s kind of the plan, because the prettiest picture they’re likely to get of the deal, from Sactown’s P.O.V., is the vaguest.
I’d rather take the team now, to avoid the chance of Steinbruck and his allies getting elected to the Mayor’s office and City Council, and figuring out a way to sidetrack an agreed-upon deal in the interim.
Has KJ apologized to the Mayors of Kansas City past and present for what his predecessors did to that poor town??? Aren’t reparations in order. Maybe send KC your assist. Police Chief and a box of Kings car antenna balls signed by yourself, CD and Demarcus.
I agree. It’s one thing to tout the benefits/advantages of your own city, but he’s starting to veer into a Seattle smear campaign the more he opens his mouth. Kinda like election season. The ads start out as positive, ”this is why i’m so great” ads, then degenerate into ”this is why the other side sucks” negative ads. Eventually, people get sick of hearing it and tune out.